Christian vs. Humanist Morality
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
14-12-2016, 07:25 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(14-12-2016 06:58 PM)socialistview Wrote:  And rocketsurgoen you said what I've been trying to say the whole time.

And yet I remain an atheist.

But yes you can throw out parts of it. Taking it "as a whole" is only possible if you remain willfully ignorant of what scholars (yes, including Christian ones) know about how and when it was written, edited, and compiled. The majority of Christian scholars and pastors, with the exception of dishonest literalists who do what you do and refuse to understand anything other than the words in English as they're printed, will tell you the things we are telling you here. Only you're not interested in facts or what is known and how it's known. That requires study, like reading books.

Much easier just to listen to some preachers tell you what the modern English words mean, and come on to atheist forums to lecture us about what you've been fed because the people that fed you everything you think you know about Christianity also told you that we're atheists because we don't understand the scriptures. But we do. Many of us here know as much as any preacher on earth knows about the Bible. And more than most.

If you were not so fundamentalist, and thus fundamentally dishonest, in your approach to understanding the Bible then you would not be getting your ass handed to you time and again. You wouldn't be reduced to trying to misapply the label of Pharisees to us, when it actually applies to what you are now doing.

You would not be forced to defend a rape culture because you would understand that those scriptures you're defending aren't even legitimate history, but are tales written hundreds of years after they supposedly occurred, by the priests of the captive Judeans in Babylon, in order to instill a nationalist pride and identity in the beaten Hebrews. It kept them together. But most of the stories of ancient Israel are made up or exaggerated legends...they don't fit with the historical records from nearby nations or with archaeology.

But again, you don't care about any of that. You would rather have the Easy Button version, and spend your time blaming us for your theological ignorance and defending the Patriarchal (misogynistic) rape culture.

Oh, we understand just fine.

Now hurry up and think of a dodge and way to blame me for seeing through you.

Better yet, do what you usually do and pretend I didn't.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
14-12-2016, 07:54 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(14-12-2016 06:58 PM)socialistview Wrote:  You can't throw out some parts of the bible you take it as whole and try to understand why. The bible doesn't accept rape no matter what you think it doesn't say that or physically disgrace them but you know what im going to ask a rabbi. And rocketsurgoen you said what I've been trying to say the whole time.

Irony meter not just broken, you fuckin' nuked it.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like TheInquisition's post
14-12-2016, 08:37 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(14-12-2016 01:20 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(14-12-2016 01:00 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Blush Thanks RS! Though to be fair, my subject area isn't the Bible...studying it at that level is just a hobby, like for many here, and to better understand my own religion. Also because I like to bring out superior knowledge against a Baptist minister in-law whose smarmy holier-than-thou attitude needs taken down a few pegs.

Anyhow, yeah...you're channeling exactly what I think everyone is thinking here, but doing so more eloquently than the rest of us. It's not some sort of atheistic group think going on, as much as how we're all equally horrified at the sort of stuff he's saying about women, respect for and treatment of women, and the backtracking on rape comments, then doubling down on them again in other statements and ways.

Yes, I would imagine that, as a professor of criminology who has to deal with the overwhelming data about the very real effects/consequences of this misogynist outlook on female victims, this stuff is even more sickening to you than it is to most of us.

It is a little funny, to me, to hear the "spoiled brats on here who don't want to look closely at scripture and see all that's inside it" accusation leveled at us in the immediate wake of (and I think inspired-to-be-written by the) criticism of his ideas by such a studious and dedicated Christian.

We get such accusations all the time, of course. It was just amusing to me that he happened to level it in (seeming) response to your comments, or in response to comments which synched with what you were writing, such that he was essentially accusing you of being dishonest because of your atheism... since, I suppose, that's the only reason such people can imagine that would cause us to disagree with them about their scriptural interpretation. Dodgy

It's a fundamental (pun intended) level of intellectual dishonesty that would prevent me from sleeping at night... and yet they're the ones who have the gall to level the accusation at us. Even those of us who aren't atheists. Laugh out load

Edit to Add: Oh, and in response to Morondog, I'm not quite so willing to write him off as a deliberate troll. I think the appearance of trolling is accidental, in accordance with Poe's Law. When you grew up, as Shai Hulud and I did, among people who really think like this guy, it's not so difficult to accept that these seemingly-crazy statements are something other than the result of malicious intent on the forum, but rather have their origin in a malicious misogyny that pervades their upbringing and thus their thought-patterns.

Data and such aside, yeah...I deal with that way too much. You don't even want to know how many times and people (and can't due to privacy laws) I've had people saying they missed classes due to domestic violence. Before we get into the material. SV's stuff, as I alluded to earlier, frightens me on a level, because I've heard the same sort of stuff from students. Every semester in my Intro course, we discuss consent as one of the first topics, before we even get into the history of the development of law. Because unfortunately, SV's views, or a variation of them are not unique. Hell, while I'm on my tangent here, someone I know from grad school is in an arranged marriage, and we were all terrified for her that she might suffer an honor killing by her very hardcore family members from Pakistan. Finding out how common those are when looking at the data is frightening, especially in the modern era when we should know better.

Also on the sickening thing...sex crimes squick me. I have sat with semi-professional stoicism through presentations by former FBI profilers that involved murder and the desecration of corpses. Taught an entire month on why we have research ethics that have been codified...hint, Nazis are a non-insignificant part, but not anywhere near alone at all. But start discussing rape in detail and I'll feel sick to my stomach. Interestingly enough, most sex crime experts I know are female. (And so proud of one friend, she just presented at a women's conference at the United Nations, this month, about her sexual assault studies. In comparison, I was thrilled to be interviewed by a national magazine; she's leagues above me in research and knowledge in general, let alone her area of specialization.)

Kinda glad you thought it was in response to me as well, I wasn't sure, since SV wasn't using the quote feature. And if you'll forgive the religious overtones, "preach brother RS, preach!" Especially on growing up Baptist. There are women I know who went on to become "Quiverfull" moms, a movement that personally, I think is nothing more than misogyny given a new branding in how it oppresses women and saddles them with so many kids that they feel they can't escape, or amount to anything more than wife and servant. (And preach brother Inquisition, preach, but don't burn anyone...)

(14-12-2016 02:04 PM)adey67 Wrote:  Professor Halud is it possible for you to explain to a moron like me why you believe in a supernatural deity? Not a trick question I'm interested to try and understand bearing in mind that to be honest I'm not more than basic intelligent.

You're hardly a moron man, and you know it. Seriously, your posts are often witty and insightful, so don't freaking put yourself down at all! (Also fuck that mole you mentioned in the Ranting thread.)

Morondog is right, I suck at justifying my beliefs. Mainly it's personal experiences, all of which I can actively rationalize away. Partially it's how I was raised, though I abandoned the church of my youth with a 14 page letter on why I was leaving and the theological reasons for my conversion to Catholicism after looking for one I felt was more in line with Scripture and had more historicity on its side. Cardinal Newman, an 1800s convert from the Anglicans, I think it was, said, "to look deep into history is to cease to be Protestant" and he was right. Plus questioning was being encouraged, whereas when I was a Baptist, I was told verbatim, "shut up and believe".

I don't agree with the Church on everything. Quite frankly, I suck a lot at being Catholic. (If you don't believe that, just ask my Traditionalist Canadian 'friend' who thinks I'm going to Hell for being relatively liberal and attending a non-Traditional Latin Mass.) I went to Confession after I voted for Clinton, because I had broken the stance on pro-life issues, but felt Trump was a greater threat to life. That's one thing I hate about the pro-life movement too...from the womb to birth, they love people. But once that baby's in the world, they don't give a crap if the kid goes hungry, sick, or uneducated. Or dies from malnutrition or something, because the kid was born and that's apparently all that matters to so fricking many of them. Being pro-life shouldn't end when the head pops out! Sorry to go off topic...

No, I'd not sacrifice my hypothetical child if I thought God told me to. Does that make me more moral than the book I claim as a partial guide? I honestly am not sure how much of my morality I get from the Bible; because obviously I'm not going to go capture a woman and force her into marriage, like the example from Deuteronomy earlier. Likewise, I'm not going to go around screaming, "one man, one woman", because it's not the Biblical definition of marriage...or at least not the only one, good gravy there's so many different scenarios involving wives, concubines, slaves, etc. No, I have to admit, my morality is grounded to a large degree in secular humanism.

Sorry to go off topic to go, "I just do" more or less. It's a question I've asked myself more than once, and will again undoubtedly. Next month I'm starting a read through plan thing of the Catholic Bible in a year and picking up one or two other scholarly works someone here recommended as well. I've read through it before in scattered times and with various people, but not all in one year and seriously.

(14-12-2016 06:08 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(14-12-2016 05:30 PM)Astreja Wrote:  Or to put it another way, "Dump all those religious rules and regulations, and just be a humanist." Thumbsup

Yeah, I think that Jesus the man, if there really was such a person (which I suspect, given the evidence I've seen, there was), was as close as you could be back then to being an activist/advocate for humanism without getting executed.

Oh, wait.

I should not have laughed. I apologized to Jesus, for real. But I laughed.

You know, I think your comment in the post 271 explains partially why I prefer my church to the other 40,000 or so denominations. It acknowledges how the Bible was compiled through councils and such, and not always nice ones. The history behind the compilation of the Bible is bloody, full of disagreement, and murder. Yet, if you believe that God could act through imperfect people, it ends up working as a whole, even though not everything should be taken literally.

Need to think of a witty signature.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Shai Hulud's post
14-12-2016, 09:08 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(12-12-2016 09:59 PM)socialistview Wrote:  And whatv do you want tov fight about.

Please speak English.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-12-2016, 11:28 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
Then read.
http://jewinthecity.com/2016/07/does-the...ern-times/
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-12-2016, 11:32 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(14-12-2016 11:28 PM)socialistview Wrote:  Then read.
http://jewinthecity.com/2016/07/does-the...ern-times/

What?

Are you sellin' somethin'? Evil_monster

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-12-2016, 11:37 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
You know they had many laws like that including one where they had to clean the blood from themselves after war becuase psychologically they become bloodthirsty. The jews always was known to have advance knowledge.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-12-2016, 11:39 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(14-12-2016 11:32 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(14-12-2016 11:28 PM)socialistview Wrote:  Then read.
http://jewinthecity.com/2016/07/does-the...ern-times/

What?

Are you sellin' somethin'? Evil_monster

No trying to convert athiest from the stupid foolish destructive ways.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-12-2016, 11:39 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(14-12-2016 11:37 PM)socialistview Wrote:  You know they had many laws like that including one where they had to clean the blood from themselves after war becuase psychologically they become bloodthirsty. The jews always was known to have advance knowledge.

They're pesky! Wink

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-12-2016, 11:40 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(14-12-2016 11:39 PM)socialistview Wrote:  No trying to convert athiest from the stupid foolish destructive ways.

Which one??? Gasp

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Banjo's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: