Christian vs. Humanist Morality
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15-12-2016, 09:43 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
http://m.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/...e-Jews.htm
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15-12-2016, 09:46 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(15-12-2016 09:34 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(15-12-2016 09:30 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Don't go there Rocket. I have been through the Bible more than you.

Yeah, you clearly haven't read the Bible, but only apologists' websites. The 7-year thing (also a longer cycle, called the Jubilee) only applies to indentured servants who were fellow Hebrews.


Yes, the year of Jubilee. The Bible at the time was for the Jews alone.

Also we are still not discussing Christian morality.

Way to avoid every point I made in that post except the first line. Nice.

I knew you'd be one of those Liars For Jesus™. Could smell it on ya.

And how could you possibly know how much I have "been through" the Bible?

I did not avoid every point. Wholly crap. Is this the CHRISTIAN vs HUMANIST MORALITY thread or is it Let's discuss Jewish law?

Stay on point.
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15-12-2016, 09:48 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(15-12-2016 09:37 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Are we discussing Christian morality and humanist morality or ancient Jewish Law?

You admonished me to stay on topic very early. If you want to discuss Jewish Law concerning these things I will. What thread is discussing that topic?

Christian morality states that if you think you should do good and you do not you have sinned.

Repeatedly, and on almost every topic from the concept of marriage to homosexual rights to the Ten Commandments (and a thousand other things), Christians cite to the Old Testament as the basis for their philosophy/theology.

The moment you show them that the Old Testament is clearly and unavoidably the product of a barbaric society that does not comport with modern moral concepts, then suddenly Christians want to disavow the whole thing.

It is quite plain that Jesus referred endlessly to "the Law and the Prophets" (which is what the Jews called the Old Testament, as Christians call it) as the basis for most of his preaching. (Even the line you paraphrased about doing good to others was Jesus' answer to how he read the Old Testament: love your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.) It is clear that Paul was almost desperate to tie his ideas about Jesus to the Old Testament. It is clear that most of the "prophecies" of the coming of Jesus as the Messiah are taken (badly) from Old Testament passages, such as the passage in Isaiah which says alma, a "young woman", but which they mistranslated as "virgin", leading to the story of the Virgin Mary.

And yet the moment we excoriate the OT, you want to disavow it.

But go ahead, wonder why we refer to your types as Liars For Jesus.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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15-12-2016, 09:48 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(15-12-2016 09:38 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(15-12-2016 09:30 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Also we are still not discussing Christian morality.

Do you really want to jump ahead to that?

The whole "eternal lake of fire"? Eternal damnation for mortal crimes?

If you believe in the omni- god, then god knew you were going to sin and created you anyway.

Or, what about the doctrine of Original Sin? That's always nice, being punished something someone else did.

What do you mean "jump ahead?" That is the discussion. Look at the title of the thread.

I got scolded very early for going off-topic and now no one but me wants to discuss the topic.
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15-12-2016, 09:49 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(15-12-2016 09:42 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(15-12-2016 09:31 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  No, he's right about the indentured servitude bit, sold for debts, etc.

That's not all there is to the story, though. And it's dishonest of him to pretend it is.

I think that is the whole story with respect to Christianity. Judaism is a different story.

And you would be wrong.

SAB: Old Testament Law

Matthew, Luke and John all state that the Old Testament laws apply.

Granted, Luke also says that they don't, but hey do you really expect perfection from a divinely inspired book?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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15-12-2016, 09:50 PM (This post was last modified: 15-12-2016 09:54 PM by Fatbaldhobbit.)
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(15-12-2016 09:48 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(15-12-2016 09:38 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Do you really want to jump ahead to that?

The whole "eternal lake of fire"? Eternal damnation for mortal crimes?

If you believe in the omni- god, then god knew you were going to sin and created you anyway.

Or, what about the doctrine of Original Sin? That's always nice, being punished something someone else did.

What do you mean "jump ahead?" That is the discussion. Look at the title of the thread.

I got scolded very early for going off-topic and now no one but me wants to discuss the topic.

Claiming that christianity disavows the OT is a sign of ignorance or dishonesty.

And you are avoiding the questions.


ETA:

In regards to jumping ahead: I was getting ready to discuss
Abraham & Isaac and his Father of the Year Award
The Morality of the Flood
Selling a rape victim to her rapist
All the "whore" references...
etc. etc. etc.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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15-12-2016, 09:51 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(15-12-2016 09:41 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  And how could you possibly know how much I have "been through" the Bible?

The same way you knew how much I had been through it.

Why don't we stop all this crap about what we have studied etc. and discuss Christian morality.

I know where you are because of how you talk. I used to sound like you because I used to be you, in a manner of speaking.

I was raised in a fundamentalist (Biblical literalist) Southern Baptist church, and fed a steady diet of Christian apologetics and Bible study.

THEN I went on to learn about the Bible on an academic level, one which you plainly have not reached. I can determine this based on the way you speak about it.

And no, you didn't address any of the points I raised. You dodged them by pretending that Jewish law somehow is different from Christian concepts of morality.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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15-12-2016, 09:54 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(15-12-2016 09:48 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(15-12-2016 09:37 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Are we discussing Christian morality and humanist morality or ancient Jewish Law?

You admonished me to stay on topic very early. If you want to discuss Jewish Law concerning these things I will. What thread is discussing that topic?

Christian morality states that if you think you should do good and you do not you have sinned.

Repeatedly, and on almost every topic from the concept of marriage to homosexual rights to the Ten Commandments (and a thousand other things), Christians cite to the Old Testament as the basis for their philosophy/theology.

The moment you show them that the Old Testament is clearly and unavoidably the product of a barbaric society that does not comport with modern moral concepts, then suddenly Christians want to disavow the whole thing.

It is quite plain that Jesus referred endlessly to "the Law and the Prophets" (which is what the Jews called the Old Testament, as Christians call it) as the basis for most of his preaching. (Even the line you paraphrased about doing good to others was Jesus' answer to how he read the Old Testament: love your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.) It is clear that Paul was almost desperate to tie his ideas about Jesus to the Old Testament. It is clear that most of the "prophecies" of the coming of Jesus as the Messiah are taken (badly) from Old Testament passages, such as the passage in Isaiah which says alma, a "young woman", but which they mistranslated as "virgin", leading to the story of the Virgin Mary.

And yet the moment we excoriate the OT, you want to disavow it.

But go ahead, wonder why we refer to your types as Liars For Jesus.

I am trying to keep up. This is going fast.

So now you want to discuss whether a "young woman" was a virgin or not?
I am not disavowing the OT. The OT had a lot of laws for the Jews. Those law are not for Christians. I know a bit about the Jews but this thread is about Christian morality the came with Jesus.
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15-12-2016, 09:56 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(15-12-2016 09:50 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(15-12-2016 09:48 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  What do you mean "jump ahead?" That is the discussion. Look at the title of the thread.

I got scolded very early for going off-topic and now no one but me wants to discuss the topic.

Claiming that christianity disavows the OT is a sign of ignorance or dishonesty.

And you are avoiding the questions.


ETA:

In regards to jumping ahead: I was getting ready to discuss
Abraham & Isaac and his Father of the Year Award
The Morality of the Flood
Selling a rape victim to her rapist
All the "whore" references...
etc. etc. etc.

I did not claim that Christianity disavows the OT. I was accused of it.

Again all the stuff you were getting ready to discuss is Jewish law and OT principles. Again we are supposed to be discussing CHRISTIAN morality.
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15-12-2016, 09:58 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
by Rocket: You dodged them by pretending that Jewish law somehow is different from Christian concepts of morality.

Jewish law is way different than Christian concepts of morality. Of course it is. Remember Jesus fulfilled the law.
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