Christian vs. Humanist Morality
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15-12-2016, 10:00 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
That would be difficult as I don't believe he ever existed
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15-12-2016, 10:03 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(15-12-2016 09:54 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  I am trying to keep up. This is going fast.

So now you want to discuss whether a "young woman" was a virgin or not?
I am not disavowing the OT. The OT had a lot of laws for the Jews. Those law are not for Christians. I know a bit about the Jews but this thread is about Christian morality the came with Jesus.

No, I was providing one example out of many, to illustrate my point. And there's nothing to discuss. The word "alma" in Isaiah, which the authors of the New Testament translated as "virgin" when coming up with one of the supposed prophecies of Jesus, does not refer to a virgin but simply a young woman. Indeed, in another place, it specifically refers to a whore who is unashamed of her whoredom. The Hebrew word for virgin would be betulah, not alma. It is used elsewhere in Isaiah, and indicates that the author(s) of the book of Isaiah were not unfamiliar with which word to use for which situation, but that the authors of the New Testament were less familiar with ancient Hebrew. (Remember that at the time of Jesus, the common person's language was Aramaic, not Hebrew, and though the languages are similar they are not the same, rather like English and its parent language German.) This is a topic we can hash out on another thead, if you'd like.

Your "the OT is for Jews" excuse holds no water. We are discussing Christian morality, which is clearly and unequivocally based in Old Testament law and moral concepts.

That's why you guys get so up in arms about the sin of homosexuality, for instance, but give a pass to people who get divorced even though Jesus specifically says divorce is forbidden but doesn't mention homosexuality (and Paul's references to it are vague and indirect).

Can you imagine the Christian Right voting for a homosexual for President? Never happen.

And yet they just overwhelmingly supported a man who has been divorced THREE TIMES.

So don't you sit there and smugly try to tell me that Christians disavow the OT as the basis for their moral concepts. We know better.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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15-12-2016, 10:03 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(15-12-2016 10:00 PM)adey67 Wrote:  That would be difficult as I don't believe he ever existed

Well, you are in the very small minority and seem to have a problem with historical fact.
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15-12-2016, 10:05 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(15-12-2016 09:56 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(15-12-2016 09:50 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Claiming that christianity disavows the OT is a sign of ignorance or dishonesty.

And you are avoiding the questions.


ETA:

In regards to jumping ahead: I was getting ready to discuss
Abraham & Isaac and his Father of the Year Award
The Morality of the Flood
Selling a rape victim to her rapist
All the "whore" references...
etc. etc. etc.

I did not claim that Christianity disavows the OT. I was accused of it.

Again all the stuff you were getting ready to discuss is Jewish law and OT principles. Again we are supposed to be discussing CHRISTIAN morality.

You cannot separate Jewish Law and New Testament christianity.

And I note that I did ask you several questions regarding NT christianity.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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15-12-2016, 10:12 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(15-12-2016 10:03 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(15-12-2016 09:54 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  I am trying to keep up. This is going fast.

So now you want to discuss whether a "young woman" was a virgin or not?
I am not disavowing the OT. The OT had a lot of laws for the Jews. Those law are not for Christians. I know a bit about the Jews but this thread is about Christian morality the came with Jesus.

No, I was providing one example out of many, to illustrate my point. And there's nothing to discuss. The word "alma" in Isaiah, which the authors of the New Testament translated as "virgin" when coming up with one of the supposed prophecies of Jesus, does not refer to a virgin but simply a young woman. Indeed, in another place, it specifically refers to a whore who is unashamed of her whoredom. The Hebrew word for virgin would be betulah, not alma. It is used elsewhere in Isaiah, and indicates that the author(s) of the book of Isaiah were not unfamiliar with which word to use for which situation, but that the authors of the New Testament were less familiar with ancient Hebrew. (Remember that at the time of Jesus, the common person's language was Aramaic, not Hebrew, and though the languages are similar they are not the same, rather like English and its parent language German.) This is a topic we can hash out on another thead, if you'd like.

Your "the OT is for Jews" excuse holds no water. We are discussing Christian morality, which is clearly and unequivocally based in Old Testament law and moral concepts.

That's why you guys get so up in arms about the sin of homosexuality, for instance, but give a pass to people who get divorced even though Jesus specifically says divorce is forbidden but doesn't mention homosexuality (and Paul's references to it are vague and indirect).

Can you imagine the Christian Right voting for a homosexual for President? Never happen.

And yet they just overwhelmingly supported a man who has been divorced THREE TIMES.

So don't you sit there and smugly try to tell me that Christians disavow the OT as the basis for their moral concepts. We know better.

I have been all through the "alma" discussion and it is boring. People like you will not be persuaded and I know I am right.

I have stated many times so far that the Christian basis for morality is that if you know to do good and you do not it is sin. That is Christian morality. It is much more restrictive than the Jewish laws. Think about raping and you have broken it. Think about doing your neighbor harm and you have broken it.
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15-12-2016, 10:13 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
And I note that I did ask you several questions regarding NT christianity.

I am sorry, BaldOne, that I missed them. Please repeat your questions and I will look for them. I have been busy trying to keep up.
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15-12-2016, 10:13 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(15-12-2016 10:03 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  
(15-12-2016 10:00 PM)adey67 Wrote:  That would be difficult as I don't believe he ever existed

Well, you are in the very small minority and seem to have a problem with historical fact.

He is in a very small minority. Most of us think that the preponderance of the evidence suggests that Jesus was a real person. I am in the latter group.

However, the "seem to have a problem with historical fact" is laughably off-the-page.

There is no proof of the existence of Jesus. It has to be inferred from other connections, mostly related to (speculative) dating of the writing of the Epistles, James, and figuring out the most likely early sources of information for what much later became the Gospels.

A case can be made that Jesus never existed. I don't currently think the case has enough support to warrant accepting, but calling the existence of Jesus a "historical fact" is so much of a stretch I wonder if you're being facetious or are really just that much of a mind-blown cultist.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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15-12-2016, 10:14 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
Due to a reported post, I've been forced, against my will to read this drivel.

Why, oh mighty Allah! Why?

(15-12-2016 06:45 PM)socialistview Wrote:  They weren't property nowhere in the bible it says that. And also the warrior they had was deborah they had queens also and leaders doesn't mean not equal your just adding your own words to what is being said. Women by jewish law were seen with respect and she could remarry how many times she wanted. And see was being cared for that's what that means.

Exactly the argument put forward regarding the Quran... although with superior command of the English language.

(15-12-2016 08:14 PM)epronovost Wrote:  ...
PS: There is a huge difference between having a harem and remarrying several time.

Absolutely! Think of the alimony payments!

(15-12-2016 08:43 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Not true. The Bible exists. That is the basis for Christian morality and the source for all discourse concerning morality. I believe it was inspired by God but that is besides the point.

Nonsense. "All discourse concerning morality" stems from the Quran ... the final word of Allah.

(15-12-2016 08:53 PM)Bzltyr Wrote:  Validity is a good term. Consistency is an important factor in validity. How can a set of morals have validity when from one day to the next or from one culture to another the "rules" change.

Christian morality has not change for two thousand years.

I murder wrong? Some places - others places not so much. There is a tribe in Africa where just about every year one member of the tribe is murdered. Without that murder the tribe would fail due to over population. Murder works for them.

A definition of Christian morality™ would be useful since there is strong evidence that it is inconsistently interpreted and practiced across the world.

Islamic morality has never changed. It is therefore superior.

Could you please provide a date for the start of christianity and, if different, the start of christian morality? Was it from the publication of the bible anthology?

On a side note, to all the Yanks in this thread, you have my deepest sympathy ... I dread to think how things will deteriorate if Betsy DeVos gets her paws on your education system.

I can't help thinking that there is deliberate intent to dumb down the Murikan population even further to make the flock more fleecable ... Amway-style.

Embrace Islam before it is too late. The Quran encourages education and knowledge-seeking.

You know it makes sense.

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15-12-2016, 10:15 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
I'm right because I say so, nice Consider Drinking Beverage
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15-12-2016, 10:20 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(15-12-2016 10:15 PM)adey67 Wrote:  I'm right because I say so, nice Consider Drinking Beverage

No, you missed it. I am right and so I said so. I am not right because I said so I am willing to say so because I am right. Get it? If I was wrong I would say that.
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