Christian vs. Humanist Morality
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19-12-2016, 03:30 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(19-12-2016 08:54 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Oh I just love it when they use the "it's a theory not a law!" argument.

This is the scientific equivalent of me saying, "Well you Christians say that Mary is a goddess and you worship her!"

Apparently there was christian sect which worshiped Mary. There is also a matter of praying to Mary which I assume could be seen as worship.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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19-12-2016, 03:31 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
The catholics still do mate.

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19-12-2016, 03:33 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(19-12-2016 03:31 PM)Banjo Wrote:  The catholics still do mate.

I know. To quote myself: There is also a matter of praying to Mary which I assume could be seen as worship.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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19-12-2016, 03:37 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(19-12-2016 03:33 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 03:31 PM)Banjo Wrote:  The catholics still do mate.

I know. To quote myself: There is also a matter of praying to Mary which I assume could be seen as worship.

Just agreeing with you mate.

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19-12-2016, 03:38 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(19-12-2016 03:37 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 03:33 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I know. To quote myself: There is also a matter of praying to Mary which I assume could be seen as worship.

Just agreeing with you mate.

Ah. All is well then.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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19-12-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(19-12-2016 03:30 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(19-12-2016 08:54 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Oh I just love it when they use the "it's a theory not a law!" argument.

This is the scientific equivalent of me saying, "Well you Christians say that Mary is a goddess and you worship her!"

Apparently there was christian sect which worshiped Mary. There is also a matter of praying to Mary which I assume could be seen as worship.

I'm not really talking about a heretical branch in Arabia in the 6th century, though. I have read some essays on how Mary was "venerated" (and possibly invented) because it was necessary to give the pagans they wished to convert something akin to the worship of similar goddess figures in their old religions. But that's still neither here nor there when talking about the quintessential definition of what makes a Christian. I'm talking about "how words are used".

The people who pray to Mary, primarily Catholics, will be the first to tell you that they do not worship her, and would consider such an accusation offensive (most of my non-immediate family are Catholics). They simply think that Mary is the most holy regular human to ever have lived, favored of God, and they talk to her in heaven (and ask her to do favors) the way other types of Christians might pray to their dead grandmothers.

If someone says, "Hey Grandma, while you're up there can you go tell Jesus that I really need some help dealing with your death?", and you said they were worshiping their grandmother, they'd be offended at the suggestion.

But again, I'm talking about using a word as it is appropriately defined in that field. Christians would define the word Christian as meaning "A follower of the teachings of Jesus, who is God incarnate, sent to die and resurrect to redeem us from our sins". The fact that there are other possible uses other than the standard use is exactly my point: it's dishonest to pretend that's the normal or proper definition in the context of describing Christianity.

Likewise, using "theory" to mean "hunch" is absolutely incorrect, despite its colloquial use, when talking about its use in the scientific community.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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19-12-2016, 05:30 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(19-12-2016 05:24 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'm not really talking about a heretical branch in Arabia in the 6th century, though. I have read some essays on how Mary was "venerated" (and possibly invented) because it was necessary to give the pagans they wished to convert something akin to the worship of similar goddess figures in their old religions.

The above is true. This is why I speak of the pagan influence in catholicism that is not in Greek orthodox xianity. In Constantinople the emperor could keep control. After the Vandals and Goths in the west, anything was possible.

Most people don't get it and think my mentioning Rome is out of context. It is not.

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19-12-2016, 07:15 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(19-12-2016 05:30 PM)Banjo Wrote:  The above is true. This is why I speak of the pagan influence in catholicism that is not in Greek orthodox xianity. In Constantinople the emperor could keep control. After the Vandals and Goths in the west, anything was possible.

Most people don't get it and think my mentioning Rome is out of context. It is not.

and you were worried that your thinking isn't clear... I wish everybody could be so muddled

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20-12-2016, 01:27 AM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(19-12-2016 05:24 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The people who pray to Mary, primarily Catholics, will be the first to tell you that they do not worship her, and would consider such an accusation offensive (most of my non-immediate family are Catholics).

So? They could also be first to tell you how loving their god is despite what world look like which should show you that their statements aren't to be taken too seriously.

If prayer can be considered worship then they worship her - facts aren't gonna change cause they start whining at them.

Quote:They simply think that Mary is the most holy regular human to ever have lived, favored of God, and they talk to her in heaven (and ask her to do favors) the way other types of Christians might pray to their dead grandmothers.

For me prayer seals the deal even if believers in question don't like admitting it; their religion is far from being monotheistic with all saints, goddesses and god having 3 avatars.


Quote:But again, I'm talking about using a word as it is appropriately defined in that field. Christians would define the word Christian as meaning "A follower of the teachings of Jesus, who is God incarnate, sent to die and resurrect to redeem us from our sins". The fact that there are other possible uses other than the standard use is exactly my point: it's dishonest to pretend that's the normal or proper definition in the context of describing Christianity.

Some christian might define christianity as such but it does not mean that member of other denomination will agree. So by telling that (part) of them is worshiping Mary you don't make mistake, you just tell them unpleasant truth that they don't want to hear.

Quote:Likewise, using "theory" to mean "hunch" is absolutely incorrect, despite its colloquial use, when talking about its use in the scientific community.

It is incorrect but in my opinion you took wrong example to highlight it. If prayer is considered worship then some christian do worship Mary, despite their opinion on the subject.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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20-12-2016, 09:44 AM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
Speaking as a former Christian, now, I can say unequivocally that no one I've ever met considers prayer to be worship. It's simply "talking to God" (or, in other cases, other people in heaven). Prayers can include praise, which we would consider worship, like "Oh God you are sooo amazing", but in general it's just a conversation and the terms are not synonymous.

If you tell a Christian that prayer to non-God people = worship, you are using the term in a way that defies the basic command of their faith, which is to worship no other beings other than God (even in tripartite form). That tells them that you don't understand what Christianity is. They will then reject anything else you say about their religion.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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