Christian vs. Humanist Morality
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20-12-2016, 04:41 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(20-12-2016 03:29 PM)socialistview Wrote:  What's the other moral option becuase forgivenesd is not free when peoples feelings get involved. There has to be justice.

No, it is not justice when the person who is offended is the one allowed to be judge, jury, and executioner.

Forgiveness is indeed free. The whole point of forgiveness is to freely offer it so you do not have to hold on to the damaged feelings.

People who cannot do so either suffer greatly from holding that grudge, or have psychological PROBLEMS to begin with.

As I posted before, the benefits to the one forgiving are immense. But even without any benefit from forgiving, it is not forgiveness if payment must come first.

Example: The phrase "debt forgiveness" means they cancel your debt. It does not mean they forgive you only after you have paid it, had someone else pay it, or shot you because you did not pay. That is not forgiveness, that is thuggery.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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20-12-2016, 06:28 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
Yes what jesus gives is free but their has to be fairness in the whole scheme of things not do whatever you want becuase there's no consequences.
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20-12-2016, 06:46 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
Stumbled across this today. Figured this is as good a place as any to drop it.

"To start from my personal view, for moral reasons I am an atheist--for moral reasons. I am of the opinion that you would recognize a creator by his creation, and the world appears to me to be put together in such a painful way that I prefer to believe that it was not created by anyone than to think that somebody created this intentionally. In the first place, for moral reasons." - Stanislaw Lem

#sigh
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20-12-2016, 06:49 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(20-12-2016 06:28 PM)socialistview Wrote:  Yes what jesus gives is free but their has to be fairness in the whole scheme of things not do whatever you want becuase there's no consequences.

This is a lie. Calling it free does not make it free.

In order to get the "free" gift of which you speak, I must say I am a terrible person by nature, surrender my will to another, worship a being that says that I will be tortured eternally for not accepting the "free" gift, obey a set of rules claimed to be from God but written by Middle Eastern bigots ...and believe that all those things are reasonable and true.

That's the opposite of free.

AGAIN, as I have explained to you, if I point a gun at you and say...

"Hey there Socialist, you really shouldn't have worn those jeans. But you did, and now you've offended me because it made me desire you. So I offer you the gift of my penis inside you. Because, you see, I want to love you and give you everything I have-- and I'm a millionaire. All you have to do surrender to my will. Oh, and if you don't accept my free gift, I'm going to be forced to shoot you because you offended me. It's justice, you see, for offending me. Unless you accept my free forgiveness. And my penis, of course."

...then I am a thug and a rapist, and the gift is not free.

Free means free, as in "without cost". Words mean things.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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20-12-2016, 06:49 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(20-12-2016 03:13 PM)socialistview Wrote:  It says god made the law perfect but he hates the law. And the it says rightousness that suppasses pharisees teachers of the law you will not make it to heaven. And it says don't care about words it just leads to arguments.

Where does it say god hates the law? You've made that claims at least twice now with no backing.

(20-12-2016 03:29 PM)socialistview Wrote:  What's the other moral option becuase forgivenesd is not free when peoples feelings get involved. There has to be justice.

RS already respond. If you are unable to forgive freely then I feel sorry for you. You are even more morally stunted than I thought.

(20-12-2016 04:29 PM)socialistview Wrote:  So did I win.

Hardly. I have a life outside the forum and you are a pretty low priority at this point.

(20-12-2016 06:28 PM)socialistview Wrote:  Yes what jesus gives is free but their has to be fairness in the whole scheme of things not do whatever you want becuase there's no consequences.

There does not "have to be" anything. Fairness is a great goal for societies to work towards in my opinion. It's also a good goal for interpersonal relationships. None of that has anything to do with justifying the blood sacrifice of an innocent. It does not balance any scales or lead to fairness, it just punishes the innocent for the acts of the guilty. How anybody today can be so disgustingly immoral is beyond me.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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20-12-2016, 07:17 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(20-12-2016 06:46 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Stumbled across this today. Figured this is as good a place as any to drop it.

"To start from my personal view, for moral reasons I am an atheist--for moral reasons. I am of the opinion that you would recognize a creator by his creation, and the world appears to me to be put together in such a painful way that I prefer to believe that it was not created by anyone than to think that somebody created this intentionally. In the first place, for moral reasons." - Stanislaw Lem

http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/7-29.htm
Its evil men who has destroyed this world not god.
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20-12-2016, 07:24 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
If jesus didn't did we would so god himself made the substitute so we wouldn't. Innocent blood has to be justified you can't go around doing things to people. Eye for an eye can't be spoiled there's consequences and you should know there's consequences. Its like a whore your caring for and she's spendingvit all on another man.
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20-12-2016, 07:46 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(20-12-2016 07:24 PM)socialistview Wrote:  If jesus didn't did we would so god himself made the substitute so we wouldn't. Innocent blood has to be justified you can't go around doing things to people. Eye for an eye can't be spoiled there's consequences and you should know there's consequences. Its like a whore your caring for and she's spendingvit all on another man.

You know when you get upset your posts become even less coherent than usual.

I assume you mean "if Jesus didn't die we would"... well, we do. We die and there is absolutely no good reason to believe there is any kind of afterliife. Dead is dead.

I have no idea what you are rambling about after that. We were talking about substitutionary atonement and you are trying to justify killing an innocent victim as payment for the acts of the guilty. That is reprehensible.

As for the whore... we all know you are a misogynistic little fucker with no respect for women. Unfortunately, that's only part of your problem. I would not be at all surprised that somebody two-timed you. If you are anything like this in real life then I feel very sorry for you.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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20-12-2016, 08:03 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
No really back then you used to ask a god for something so jesus is god over all the other gods so whatever you get from jesus you got from that god. Jesus was given everything becuase he died innocently as you claim to atone for the sins of all wronge doers. So you can only obtain forgiveness from jesus becuase he died innocently and if you says jesus forgive me then its freely given.
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20-12-2016, 08:34 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(20-12-2016 08:03 PM)socialistview Wrote:  No really back then you used to ask a god for something so jesus is god over all the other gods so whatever you get from jesus you got from that god. Jesus was given everything becuase he died innocently as you claim to atone for the sins of all wronge doers. So you can only obtain forgiveness from jesus becuase he died innocently and if you says jesus forgive me then its freely given.

1) "Freely given" never includes an "if-then" clause.

What is so hard to understand about that?

2) Murdering an innocent person on behalf of another person's crimes is just about the most immoral thing I can think of. Murdering an innocent person because of something that offends you, personally, is pretty much at the very bottom of the list. That puts your particular god-story on par with the most awful human beings that ever lived... like, Vlad the Impaler awful.

What is so hard to understand about that?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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