Christian vs. Humanist Morality
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20-12-2016, 08:38 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
Sorry for the incorherentness just my phone but I did have a whore as a girlfriend literally who treated me like shit. But I also have a mother who is basically a nun and a sister who didn't have sex till she was 40 so I know how women are but jesus was considered cursed when he went on the cross to bear sins of ours that we would have to answer for our selves without him so for dying innocently he was repaid to be fair. I think its a good advanced idea to have payment after death.
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20-12-2016, 08:41 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
God is saying take my life instead of theirs. If then you have to answer for your killing innocent people.
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20-12-2016, 09:03 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(20-12-2016 08:41 PM)socialistview Wrote:  God is saying take my life instead of theirs. If then you have to answer for your killing innocent people.

FFS, what's so hard to grasp about this?

God is saying "take my life instead of theirs"? Okay. Done.

He needed to kill himself because it was necessary, somehow, for my sins to be forgiven, that an innocent person die in my place. Magic, I guess.

And so that's what he did. Done. Sins forgiven. Right?

Ooooooooooh, no wait, there's more it turns out. It's a limited time offer and comes with the strings of obedience to a book written by humans, which seems to focus a strange amount on social behaviors that are important to certain types of humans.

In order to accept the "free offer", I must surrender my will to another. I must accept that something I consider TOTALLY IMMORAL (requiring a vicarious blood sacrifice atonement) is acceptable behavior for a being that requires me to worship it in order to attain the "free offer".

And if I don't do this without proof, but only one holy book among hundreds on the planet which says things that appear to defy what I already know about reality, then I'm going to be tortured by this person for refusing the "free offer"?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?

In any other context, you would be horrified at the idea. God could simply have said, "I understand that man is flawed, but ones who try their best to be of good character I will accept into heaven, or let them just die like everything else on earth, if they wish." Only humans need to threaten other humans to attain obedience.

So let me repeat, because I want to be very clear: "freely given" never includes an "if-then" clause. It certainly doesn't contain coercive threats.

It is so immoral I am horrified just thinking of the idea. I consider your version of religion to be on par with the Aztecs, cutting the hearts out of virgins because that would cause the magic that made the rains fall, according to them.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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20-12-2016, 09:49 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
Um you don't have to obey the old covenant commands love thy neighbor is all you have to do only for the jews that's for. He does romans 2 the gentile who is of good character. You have faith then jesus will come it is a living bible only book that says something will come back but as a believer god only does miracles with believers. And you have no right to accept or reject anything since your not a jew anyways who forfathers didn't reject god. He did it for you not the other way around to be shamed by his own people and for his people not to make it to heaven for you. Its a gift think of it that way to give his life instead of yours. God is not going to let the innocent death go unpunished that's not what a god would be like.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...lossians+2
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20-12-2016, 10:13 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
Read the bible too much for me to give out.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...alatians+1

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...alatians+2

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...atians%203

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...atians%204

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...atians%205

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...atians%206
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20-12-2016, 10:15 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(20-12-2016 09:49 PM)socialistview Wrote:  Um you don't have to obey the old covenant commands love thy neighbor is all you have to do only for the jews that's for. He does romans 2 the gentile who is of good character. You have faith then jesus will come it is a living bible only book that says something will come back but as a believer god only does miracles with believers. And you have no right to accept or reject anything since your not a jew anyways who forfathers didn't reject god. He did it for you not the other way around to be shamed by his own people and for his people not to make it to heaven for you. Its a gift think of it that way to give his life instead of yours. God is not going to let the innocent death go unpunished that's not what a god would be like.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...lossians+2

I'm not talking about the Old Testament, in this case.

Say it with me: "There. Is. No. If-Then. Clause. In. A. Free. Gift."

And there is certainly no threat of torture.

Your God is willing to torture people who do not obey and worship him, based entirely on offenses he claims are offenses.

If the gift is free, and freely given, then the death has already accomplished its ends, and I have nothing to worry about. But as I said, that's not all there is to it.

What would you say to a guy who walked up and said you owed him a debt, and you'd never met him before in your life, certainly never volunteered to take any money from him, then pointed a gun at you and said the debt had to be paid or else he'd shoot you... but if you just joined his organization, he'd forgive your debt and let you live?

Your "salvation" concept is no different. People did not volunteer for the debt; it was assigned to them by their very birth and nature (see Romans), and yet we are to be punished, according to the story, for this offense we did not volunteer to give. But if we just join the organization and obey its strictures, we can be forgiven?

Can you not see right through this? Only humans need to coerce others into obedience, in this way.

An all-powerful being has the capacity to either let us into heaven if we are servants of his (if that's his thing) or just let us die like animals. That is morally acceptable.

The moment Hell enters the equation, your God has become the moral equivalent of a rapist... or at the very least a mafia shakedown.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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20-12-2016, 10:19 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(20-12-2016 10:13 PM)socialistview Wrote:  Read the bible too much for me to give out.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...alatians+1

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...alatians+2

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...atians%203

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...atians%204

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...atians%205

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...atians%206

Trying to use a book in which atheists disbelieve, as debate. FacepalmFacepalmFacepalm

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20-12-2016, 10:32 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
Listen you either accept jesus and your seen as sinless or you don't and have to man up to your own sins. You know I think greed is the reason for all these problems in the world since selfishness is the root of satan. by your subjective mind you don't even know the sins youv committed. Innocent people are dying becuase we too ignorant to know that left handers can't use right hand scissors and if we were going by god that would already be known and all the problems in the world would be understood and fixed. That's how you sin apart from sexual sins all the other sins are you involving someone else.
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20-12-2016, 11:25 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(20-12-2016 10:32 PM)socialistview Wrote:  Listen you either accept jesus and your seen as sinless or you don't and have to man up to your own sins. You know I think greed is the reason for all these problems in the world since selfishness is the root of satan. by your subjective mind you don't even know the sins youv committed. Innocent people are dying becuase we too ignorant to know that left handers can't use right hand scissors and if we were going by god that would already be known and all the problems in the world would be understood and fixed. That's how you sin apart from sexual sins all the other sins are you involving someone else.

This is a lie. You are lying. I do not avoid your scriptures so that I might freely commit sins. I certainly don't harm others on purpose. Whatever preacher told you that was full of shit. Sorry, but that's a fact.

I simply don't believe all of the things the Bible claims are "sins" are actually wrong. And I also think that many of its commands to holiness are outright immoral.

I am well aware of what violations I have committed, according to your scriptures.

Are you aware of all the violations you have committed according to the Qur'an? How much does it worry you that you don't obey them, and according to the Qur'an are going to be sent to their (much nastier) version of Hell?

If you don't worry about your sins against Allah and the commands given in the Qur'an, why not? (And don't say "because I believe the Bible"; that's not an answer, that's a dodge.) The question is "why do you not accept the Qur'an as the proper book containing the commands of God, and why do you not obey them?"

Well, we see both books the same way.

I am a Secular Humanist. The conditions of the humans on this planet are very important to me, and I am frankly pretty pissed off that you keep insinuating that we are responsible for the bad things when in fact we fight and argue for better conditions in the here and now-- since we don't believe there's a beautiful afterlife to wait for, we must make it here and now. Get it?

And as I have been telling you, I consider your religion too immoral. It is beneath my moral code, subjective as it may be. I find your entire concept of salvation morally indefensible.

I am not a Christian because I am too good of a person to stoop that low.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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21-12-2016, 12:18 AM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
What are the immoral commands. And I believe in all religions to every people visnu is god budda is god ra is god jesus is god allah is god. And its your ignorance meaning things you do without knowing but you might kill if you covet so badly. You know most nde say that they saw a whole panorama of there lives and showed every person they effected down to the words which it says every word will be judged but all secrets will be reveiled you think you have not sinned when you have and will I don't know what your sins are but god does. You don't see yourself as evil becuase you have not yet seen the innoccent die becuase of lack of knowledge on things. The world sees themselves as sinless but don't know the sin their doing becuase of ignorance. You think you pushing forward but you don't know that greed is blocking from what should already be known. Everybody is a sinner not by birth but becuase they have sinned.
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