Christian vs. Humanist Morality
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06-12-2016, 02:48 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(06-12-2016 10:12 AM)Astreja Wrote:  Tomasia, you might be interested to know that I was a humanist before I knew what a humanist was. I took the label because it correctly identified what I already was, and had been since long before My teenage years.

That’s kind of what I stated in the previous post. Humanism didn’t make you humanist. A variety of social, and environmental influences led/coerced you into holding certain values, and moral inclinations. When seeking to give this frame an established label, humanism fit the bill for you.

Quote:You seem hell-bent on an all-or-nothing approach. Your posts imply that if a humanist slips up just once, then the philosophy is all for naught and therefore worthless.

This wouldn’t be my point, my point would be, that it wouldn’t be a slip. Because the humanistic rules you currently subscribe to are entirely arbitrary. You yourself seem to indicate that humanism was a label you later chose for your already held moral inclinations and values. But let’s assume one day a variety of social and environmental pressures lead you to hold a variety of different values, perhaps even anti-humanistic values. This wouldn’t mean you slipped, just that your moral preferences have changed. The same way we wouldn’t say, that though I currently like mid-century modern furniture, it would be a slip if in the future I preferred the industrial look more.

You have no real obligation to humanism, or it’s values, those obligations are entirely disposable if ever you see fit. If the external forces attempt to push you another way, there’s no reason to remain as your were, to anchor yourself into your old set of values. You’re not trading or betraying a set of moral truths, for a set of lies, just one set of moral preferences for another. Because at the end of the day, it can’t be any differently.

As you said humanism, humanistic philosophy, the humanist manifesto didn’t make you a humanist, you were a “humanist” long before being aware of the label, or it founders, and manifestos. If you were one day to be something other than a humanist, you didn’t slip up, or do something wrong, you just moved with the tide.

At best all your humanism offered you, is the ability to join a local social club, with others who identify as humanist as well, and participate in activities you associate with being one. But as moral philosophy, its entirely useless. As someone who was predisposed to it’s tendencies long before you were familiar with any actual humanistic philosophy, this should be obvious.


Quote:And if we do fail, it is ourselves and our communities that we fail -- not some philosophy.

It wouldn't be a failure at all. You have no actual obligations to your community or yourself here, anymore so than wolves, or monkeys do, that's just a fiction, a remnant of a religious age.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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06-12-2016, 02:49 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(06-12-2016 02:48 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You have no actual obligations to your community or yourself here, anymore so than wolves, or monkeys do, that's just a fiction, a remnant of a religious age.

And yet I keep those obligations. Deal with it, O fellator of a filicidal hell-creating god.
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06-12-2016, 02:58 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(06-12-2016 02:42 PM)Astreja Wrote:  How unfortunate that you have a "purpose" that's so dependent on us. Aren't you secure enough in your belief?

I'm secure about my religious belief, I'm not particularly secure in my beliefs about atheists. I could just hang out with theists, express my views, get high fives, the way atheists do here when talking about theists among themselves, but I don't like those sort of vacuum chambers.

My views of atheists, are insecure, they're more less to be treated as a personal hypothesis, open to revision, can fluctuate any given day, rather than established facts about them. And by very nature, will rub up against my own personal biases. I just like to explore and test my hypothesis as much as I can, because of my own curiosities. To see how well my assumptions hold up, in regards to the "others" here.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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06-12-2016, 03:03 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(06-12-2016 02:49 PM)Astreja Wrote:  
(06-12-2016 02:48 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You have no actual obligations to your community or yourself here, anymore so than wolves, or monkeys do, that's just a fiction, a remnant of a religious age.

And yet I keep those obligations. Deal with it, O fellator of a filicidal hell-creating god.

Not when there are no real obligations here to keep. Those obligations you speak of are just imaginary.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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06-12-2016, 07:39 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(06-12-2016 03:03 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Those obligations you speak of are just imaginary.

Well, from My perspective, obligations to the laws of a nonexistent god are just as imaginary, if not more so.

When it comes right down to it, the most important thing is to interact with our cultures in pragmatic ways, doing things that foster cooperation (because it's easier to fulfill our goals when someone is helping out) and minimize pain (because it's generally difficult to fulfill those goals if we're imprisoned or dead).

I am rather puzzled about something, though. You don't seem to like atheists very much, yet you're trying to analyze them. We are individuals, you know, just as you and other believers are individuals. Not all of us are humanists, either. Aside from a lack of belief in gods, which is hardly a secret, what about us actually necessitated starting a thread?
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06-12-2016, 07:46 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(06-12-2016 02:58 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-12-2016 02:42 PM)Astreja Wrote:  How unfortunate that you have a "purpose" that's so dependent on us. Aren't you secure enough in your belief?

I'm secure about my religious belief, I'm not particularly secure in my beliefs about atheists. I could just hang out with theists, express my views, get high fives, the way atheists do here when talking about theists among themselves, but I don't like those sort of vacuum chambers.

My views of atheists, are insecure, they're more less to be treated as a personal hypothesis, open to revision, can fluctuate any given day, rather than established facts about them. And by very nature, will rub up against my own personal biases. I just like to explore and test my hypothesis as much as I can, because of my own curiosities. To see how well my assumptions hold up, in regards to the "others" here.

Aka, "I'm an arrogant and presumptuous asshole who prefers my straw men over reality."

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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06-12-2016, 09:59 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
It's important to remember one key fact whenever Tomasia starts posting in a thread.

He is not here for a sincere discussion.

He is, by his own admission, here to provoke, intrude into others' personal spaces, get under other posters' skin, test his personal theories on atheists and probably a few other equally offensive and/or annoying reasons.

The moral argument is apparently his own personal favorite dead horse which he loves to beat endlessly. Fruitlessly, I might add, but also endlessly.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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07-12-2016, 09:42 AM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(06-12-2016 07:39 PM)Astreja Wrote:  I am rather puzzled about something, though. You don't seem to like atheists very much, yet you're trying to analyze them. We are individuals, you know, just as you and other believers are individuals. Not all of us are humanists, either. Aside from a lack of belief in gods, which is hardly a secret, what about us actually necessitated starting a thread?

I don't dislike atheists, if I dislike any particular atheist, I assure you it has nothing to do with their lack of belief. Just like if you were to dislike me, I doubt it would have anything to do with my skin color, or gender. Atheists who I dislike, are individuals I would likely dislike if they were theist, or christians as well.

And just because I might think atheists are confused or deluded doesn't mean I dislike them either. Just like atheists who think all theists are deluded, don't necessarily dislike all theist, as a result.

And when it comes to you personally. I see no reason to dislike you, you haven't particularly said or did anything to warrant that. I'm sure you're a nice person, and I have nothing against you personally.

Quote:Well, from My perspective, obligations to the laws of a nonexistent god are just as imaginary, if not more so.

Well I guess if you're saying they're just as imaginary, you're acknowledging your own obligations are imagery, so that's fine by me.

Quote:When it comes right down to it, the most important thing is to interact with our cultures in pragmatic ways, doing things that foster cooperation (because it's easier to fulfill our goals when someone is helping out) and minimize pain (because it's generally difficult to fulfill those goals if we're imprisoned or dead).

Well you have your own particular goals and desires, a desire to cultivate your own sense of self, how you want to see yourself, how you want others to see you, perhaps like a run of the mill liberal humanist. Other's have different goals and desires, often competing goals and desires.

So these vague, shared goals don't really indicate anything. But we have some, I'm sure neither of us like to be robbed, or victims of violent assault, so we like having police, courts, prisons to lock offenders up, so we don't have to worry too much about that. Perhaps you're poor, and perhaps would like a bigger safety net, perhaps I'm rich and would like to reduce it, to pocket more of my money. Perhaps you truly give a shit about the homeless, while I just want them off my corner, keep them from stinking up my street.

You know who becomes humanist, people already inclined to those liberal values to begin with. But for the rest of humanity who doesn't share them, or doesn't really care to be a part of your social club, you're likely not gonna be able to sell them on it.

"Desire what I desire, pursue what I like to pursue, be more like me", is not really a strong selling point, but thats pretty much all you have. You don't have any truth, or even false belief in truth here, just a series of personal preferences. You and the religious may just as well have imaginary obligations, but at least religious people can truly believe they are real, as real as their God, and hold on to this belief by tooth and nail, while you'll likely recognize yours are imaginary in a few short steps. We have plenty of examples of those who felt so strongly about their false, imaginary beliefs, that they'd sacrifice their life for them, but not many who would do so for their personal preferences, or recognized imaginary obligations.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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07-12-2016, 10:08 AM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(06-12-2016 09:59 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  It's important to remember one key fact whenever Tomasia starts posting in a thread.

He is not here for a sincere discussion.

He is, by his own admission, here to provoke, intrude into others' personal spaces, get under other posters' skin, test his personal theories on atheists and probably a few other equally offensive and/or annoying reasons.

The moral argument is apparently his own personal favorite dead horse which he loves to beat endlessly. Fruitlessly, I might add, but also endlessly.


Yes, I am here to test my personal theories, not sure why that's offensive. Atheists have their own personal theories regarding theists, that they're deluded, etc... The only difference is that when it comes to atheists, I like to test this out, to see if it's accurate or not, rather than assume that and repeat it with my theistic/atheistic buddies for the sake of high-fives and rep points.

And as far as sincerity is concerned, while it's appreciated, it's not particularly necessary. Science tells me that when it comes to matters of the mind, you shouldn't put too much stock in the observed parties sincere rationalizations about themselves. I'll hear you out, but I'm busy dissecting your brain, and I'm more interested in aligning how it works, with the variety of scientific literature on brains in general, and animal behavior. As far as i'm concerned, the whole enlightenment enterprise, that serves as the basis for common beliefs about rationalism, objectivity, secular morality, truth, is all non-sense. But judging that individuals such as yourself have a sincere commitment to these things, your sincerity is only impediment to whats accurate here.

I don't expect you to like this, no one particularly likes when someone picks up their worldview, or argues that they're deeply held beliefs are false. I don't expect to make fans in the process. But hey that's okay, as long as my curiosities are served.

It does seem that post such as yours, that are personal in nature, are defensive/protective on your part. To warn others to stay away from my dissecting of their world-views, to throw wrenches at my continued testing of my assumptions. It's why folks like you and TbD have relegated yourselves to avoiding answering any questions at all, and seem to convince others to do the same.

But you just make me even more curious, as to what exactly are you trying to protect here? What exactly are you trying to guard. For theists behaving similarly this might be obvious, they're protecting his cherished religious beliefs. But you, and other atheists? What is it that you feel so treated by? That's an interesting question.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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07-12-2016, 10:32 AM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(06-12-2016 07:37 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-12-2016 07:05 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I view the idea of moral nihilism as also the range classified as no Inherent morality.

So you're not a humanist? Because humanist more often than not are moral relativist, not moral nihilist.

So when you speak of the ignored subtly and nuances here, are you referring to the relativistic moral outlook of humanism? The same nuance and subtly which you reject, by professing moral nihilism?
The incoherence that only exists and has been demonstrated to you via often your own brought up sources.

Yes only a certain x group % of philosophers believe moral stance or whatever... which doesn't support their believe in Y thought. The reality is when you're further into a field the definitions go beyond 101 is or is not level of concepts.

That's why when you look into philosophical works there's dozens upon dozens of written and debated ideas on the ranges Relativism, Nihilism, or humanism can be understood as. It's not incoherent or all inconsistent, it's just deeply examined.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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