Christian vs. Humanist Morality
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02-02-2017, 12:33 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(02-02-2017 11:48 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 11:44 AM)Naielis Wrote:  Nope.

"everything created needs a creator, except that creator"?

Sorry but that is the very definition of special pleading.

Good thing that's not what I said.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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02-02-2017, 12:38 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(02-02-2017 12:28 PM)Naielis Wrote:  How exactly am I no further ahead? And I'm not here for you to condescendingly grade my argumentation. Also, it's hilarious that you think dualism has been refuted. Is your mind material? Are your thoughts material? Your experience? Here's some reading on dualism: http://www.iep.utm.edu/dualism/

I will grade you as I see fit. If you feel that's condescending, fine. Seems that you're a bit sensitive on that, though.

Yes, dualism has been refuted. Even Descartes couldn't come up with a proper explanation of how the immaterial can influence the material. You can't either. No one has. Might some evidence for dualism arise tomorrow? It's possible, but then you'd have to entirely re-write quantum mechanics.

Sean Carroll explains it much better than I, so I'll let him have at it from here:



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02-02-2017, 12:41 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(02-02-2017 12:38 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  I will grade you as I see fit. If you feel that's condescending, fine. Seems that you're a bit sensitive on that, though.

Yes, dualism has been refuted. Even Descartes couldn't come up with a proper explanation of how the immaterial can influence the material. You can't either. No one has. Might some evidence for dualism arise tomorrow? It's possible, but then you'd have to entirely re-write quantum mechanics.

Sean Carroll explains it much better than I, so I'll let him have at it from here:




Grading someone's argument is condescending. The fact that Descartes couldn't solve the mind body problem doesn't mean no one can or has. And how is dualism inconsistent with QM?

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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02-02-2017, 12:49 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(02-02-2017 12:33 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 11:48 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  "everything created needs a creator, except that creator"?

Sorry but that is the very definition of special pleading.

Good thing that's not what I said.

Close enough.

(02-02-2017 10:22 AM)Naielis Wrote:  The creator was not created so it needs no creator.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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02-02-2017, 12:50 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(02-02-2017 12:38 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  Yes, dualism has been refuted. Even Descartes couldn't come up with a proper explanation of how the immaterial can influence the material.

Not all dualists think the immaterial influences the material. Contemporary supervenience physicalism is a great example. Epiphenominalism is another.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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02-02-2017, 12:53 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(02-02-2017 12:49 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Close enough.

The creator was not created. I didn't say everything needs to be created but the creator. So it's simply not special pleading.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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02-02-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(02-02-2017 12:53 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 12:49 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Close enough.

The creator was not created. I didn't say everything needs to be created but the creator. So it's simply not special pleading.

WTF? You said that in the first sentence, then say you didn't say that in the second sentence.

If you're going to create arbitrary distinctions without a difference, then you are dishonest.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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02-02-2017, 01:26 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(02-02-2017 12:13 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 11:49 AM)Chas Wrote:  Yes.

"Everything is created - except for the uncreated one" is the poster child for special pleading.

And "necessary being" is a smokescreen of hand-waving. It is only necessary to those who can't bear uncertainty.

I don't think Aquinas was in the business of making smokescreens. Necessary and contingent beings are an important part of any metaphysic. The question is whether reality consists of only contingent beings or includes a necessary being. Necessary beings are things whose existence is grounded in themselves. They were not created because they are not temporal. Here's a link that explains quite a bit about the subject. Go to the section on dualism. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/modal...eties/#Dua

Thanks, I already know quite a bit about the subject. This isn't the only thing Aquinas got wrong.

Pro tip: Philosophy has advanced quite a bit since the 13th century. Dodgy

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-02-2017, 01:28 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(02-02-2017 01:02 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 12:53 PM)Naielis Wrote:  The creator was not created. I didn't say everything needs to be created but the creator. So it's simply not special pleading.

WTF? You said that in the first sentence, then say you didn't say that in the second sentence.

If you're going to create arbitrary distinctions without a difference, then you are dishonest.

I created no arbitrary distinctions. I never said everything must be created only to make an exception for the creator. I made a distinction between necessary and contingent beings.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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02-02-2017, 01:30 PM
RE: Christian vs. Humanist Morality
(02-02-2017 12:50 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 12:38 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  Yes, dualism has been refuted. Even Descartes couldn't come up with a proper explanation of how the immaterial can influence the material.

Not all dualists think the immaterial influences the material. Contemporary supervenience physicalism is a great example. Epiphenominalism is another.

What do YOU think?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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