Christian with a question....
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17-06-2016, 01:10 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
I've never heard of this "fine tuning" you speak of, please tell us more. Big Grin
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17-06-2016, 01:28 PM (This post was last modified: 17-06-2016 02:31 PM by Commonsensei.)
RE: Christian with a question....
(17-06-2016 12:24 PM)Phu Cat Wrote:  [size=medium]"Jesus's" return was suppose to happen in the life time of his followers around 2000 years ago.

Nobody ever said it Jesus was supposed to return 2000 years ago. Just that we were to be watchful as it could happen at any time and he will come "as a thief in the night". In other words, unexpectedly. While I said I hope it happens in my lifetime I sincerely doubt that it will. I should be so lucky.

The supposed words of Jesus.

“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“
(Matthew 16: 27, 28)


Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.“
(Matthew 24: 25-34)


“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place…“
(Mark 13:26-30)


“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. Then He told them a parable: Behold the fig tree and all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.“
(Luke 21:27-32)


“But Jesus kept silent and the high priest said to Him, “I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.“
(Matthew 26: 63, 64)


This passage is from the story of Jesus’ trial. Jesus tells the high priest that he would see him return riding on the clouds.



Now that we heared from the "big man" himself. What about the views of the writers thoughts on the matter?

“Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son…”
(Hebrews 1:1-2)


“Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.” (1 Corinthians 10:11)

“And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.” (Hebrews 10:24-25)

“Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.
(1 John 2:18)


“Do not seek a wife. This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.” (1 Corinthians 7:27,29-31)

The end of all things is near…” (1 Peter 4:7)

Last day's, last hours the end is very near in our life time. Sounds like they where pretty sure or at least convinced to me.

“For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.”
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)


We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed“ (1 Cor. 15:51)

“…the coming of the Lord is near. …the Judge is standing right at the door.” (James 5:8, 9)
The writers are not speaking like It will come to pass. Several generations will pass. No there talking like it's going to happen to them. That it will happen tomorrow.

“Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.”
(Revelation 1:3)

“And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.” And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.“”…
(Revelation 22:6,7,10,12,20)


So now you can take this a few ways. You can read for yourself to see the above statements match up to the 2000 year old return.
Or you can choose to ignore it (like some many in the faith) But it doing so you are basically calling all them liars. Or maybe you think it was an all big misunderstanding. They really meant soon like 4000 years soon.

You also seem to have the same problem that many Christians do and really want the world to come to an end. A life time of servitude. When has anyone said they were happy to be a slave?

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17-06-2016, 01:36 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(17-06-2016 12:24 PM)Phu Cat Wrote:  insert cosmological argument here
You call it evidence, I call it survivor bias.

I'm fine with people seeing "things are really complex" as evidence for some nebulous, unspecific, sapient creator. Really, I am. It is indeed a possibility. However, that possibility definitely does not necessitate a belief from me or anyone else, and if you're actually saddened by the thought of other people not being convinced of such a thing, then I think your conclusions about reality are the clear result of an inordinate amount of emotional manipulation. Just my 2¢

If we came from dust, then why is there still dust?
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17-06-2016, 01:37 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(17-06-2016 12:24 PM)Phu Cat Wrote:  "Jesus's" return was suppose to happen in the life time of his followers around 2000 years ago.

Nobody ever said it Jesus was supposed to return 2000 years ago. Just that we were to be watchful as it could happen at any time and he will come "as a thief in the night". In other words, unexpectedly. While I said I hope it happens in my lifetime I sincerely doubt that it will. I should be so lucky.

As for Full Circle's question: Knowing there would be no accountability I fear I'd have gone back to my old life style of hedonism, self indulgence, being less than responsible. (Not that atheists aren't responsible.) But I was lucky. I had an old girl friend from high school look me up, she loved me enough to show me the error of my ways and turned me around and got me headed in, what I'd call, my right direction.

As far as something happening to prove there is no God,that's going to be pretty amazing. I'm sure you've heard it before that God's fingerprints are all over the place. Here is something I saved some years ago but I don't know who wrote it, it sure wasn't me:
A second scientific verification of a religious belief is the claim of the great monotheistic faiths that the world is the product of intelligent design. Scientists originally thought that whatever the initial conditions of the universe were, eventually the universe would evolve the complex life forms we see today. But during the last forty years or so, scientists have been stunned by the discovery of how complex and sensitive a balance of initial conditions must be given in the Big Bang in order for the universe to permit the origin and evolution of intelligent life in the cosmos. In the various fields of physics and astrophysics, classical cosmology, quantum mechanics, and biochemistry, discoveries have repeatedly disclosed that the existence of intelligent life depends upon a delicate balance . If any one of these were to be slightly altered, the balance would be destroyed and life would not exist. In fact, the universe appears to have been incomprehensibly fine-tuned from the moment of its inception for the production of intelligent life. We now know that life-prohibiting universes are vastly more probable than any life-permitting universe like ours. How much more probable?
The answer is that the chances that the universe should be life-permitting are so infinitesimal as to be incomprehensible and incalculable. For example, Stephen Hawking has estimated that if the rate of the universe’s expansion one second after the Big Bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would have re-collapsed into a hot fireball. P. C. W. Davies has calculated that the odds against the initial conditions being suitable for later star formation (without which planets could not exist) is one followed by a thousand billion billion zeroes, at least. He also estimates that a change in the strength of gravity or of the weak force by only one part in 10100 would have prevented a life-permitting universe. There are a number of such quantities and constants present in the big bang which must be fine-tuned in this way if the universe is to permit life. So improbability is multiplied by improbability until our minds are reeling in incomprehensible numbers.

Way out of my pay grade.
Phu Cat

"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" - Matthew 27:46 (KJV2000) ... fuckin' pussy.

#sigh
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17-06-2016, 01:49 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(17-06-2016 01:10 PM)pablo Wrote:  I've never heard of this "fine tuning" you speak of, please tell us more. Big Grin

Please no No

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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17-06-2016, 02:17 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(17-06-2016 01:49 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(17-06-2016 01:10 PM)pablo Wrote:  I've never heard of this "fine tuning" you speak of, please tell us more. Big Grin

Please no No

But it seemed so convincing! Dodgy
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17-06-2016, 02:21 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(17-06-2016 01:28 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  
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I've heard of bringing a gun to a knife fight but damn.... a "like" doesn't do it justice.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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17-06-2016, 02:36 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(17-06-2016 12:24 PM)Phu Cat Wrote:  As for Full Circle’s question: Knowing there would be no accountability I fear I’d have gone back to my old life style of hedonism, self indulgence, being less than responsible.

Gotcha. So you’re a dick in Jesus’ clothing. Thumbsup

(17-06-2016 12:24 PM)Phu Cat Wrote:  As far as something happening to prove there is no God, that’s going to be pretty amazing.

You couldn’t have gotten that any more ass-backwards if you painted a face on an elephant’s ass and led him by the tail.

[Image: elephant%2Bblind%2Bman%2Btail.png]

Aliza beat me to all the good points Weeping

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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17-06-2016, 02:46 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(17-06-2016 02:17 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(17-06-2016 01:49 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Please no No

But it seemed so convincing! Dodgy

It is very convincing, I mean everything is so complex and put together just right in an orderly fashion. Clearly the Care Bears created the universe in their infinite wisdom and they truly care and love us all.

Someday they will come back and rapture us to Care-A-Lot, it's been prophesied to happen within my lifetime so it could be any day now.

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17-06-2016, 02:53 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(17-06-2016 12:53 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(17-06-2016 12:24 PM)Phu Cat Wrote:  The answer is that the chances that the universe should be life-permitting are so infinitesimal as to be incomprehensible and incalculable.

I question your ability to rate these statements. I question your ability to evaluate comments from figures such a Stephen Hawking in their proper context.

Do you have a degree in mathematics from a competent university such as MIT or UCLA? Maybe even something from a well rated state university?

Ie: Not Biola.

I minored in math and then went into a state university's math grad program. I didn't complete my Masters, but still learned enough that they were willing to trust me to teach calculus to undergrads. I have encountered this line of, erm, reasoning from Christian apologists, multiple times, and I feel qualified to comment on the quality of at least the probabilistic elements of this argument. Mostly because it doesn't take much math to figure out.

And that quality of math is this: Bullshit.

Bull.

Shit.

This math is of a quality equivalent to bovine fecal matter. Not the good stuff you can grow crops in either. The crappy stuff.

Everything, EVERYTHING about the probabilistic nature of these arguments is flawed, and reflects a deep failure on the part of both the arguers and those who believe them to understand even the most basic elements of probability. (I'll qualify that accusation in a bit, but it won't be a flattering qualification. Not in the least.) The ENTIRE argument, in every manner in which I have ever heard it presented (and I've heard it presented often) bears these hallmarks of woeful innumeracy and reaching far beyond their expertise.

As just one example, we have this little gem. I forget who authored, produced, or narrated it, but they obviously spent more on their CGI than on fact-checking, which sounds about right for Bible-promotion. They talk about universal constants and say, if this particular value (I forget which one) were off by a small amount, life couldn't exist. Then they show this long sprawling number line set in space and talk about how it could have been ANY number, as the camera zooms along the line's ever-increasing values and eventually pans over to show it receding into infinity. What are the odds?

This comes down to probability distribution. A probability distribution function is essentially a graph of the likelihood of any given outcome. If we were to draw a graph of the pdf of rolling a fair 6-sided die once, it would be a steady line at zero except for 6 points at 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 elevated to 0.166666666..., because the odds of getting those respective values are each one in six. Getting a 3.5 is impossible, so it's value is 0. If the die were instead unfairly weighted such that all of the 1s that would have been rolled instead became 6s, the pdf's value for an outcome of 1 would now be 0, its value for an outcome of 6 would now be 0.3333333..., and its value for the outcomes 2 through 5 would be unchanged. Notice that the sum total of probabilities for all outcomes under consideration, even impossible outcomes like the 1 on the weighted die, MUST be either 0 or positive, and must add up to 1 (or 100%, if you prefer). These are axioms of probability theory, which is to say that if you are dealing with something that doesn't obey these rules, then it's not actually probability you're dealing with.

What this particular example -- and many, many others in this big bull turd pile -- is trying to imply is that the probability distribution function is uniform over (at least) all positive integers. "Uniform" means that all possible outcomes have exactly the same probability as all others. The fair die example is an example of a uniform distribution, while the unfair die (with 6 having greater probability than 2-5) is an example of a non-uniform distribution. Got it?

Okay. Now onto this bullshit infinite number line and why it's bullshit, and how this colors almost every other argument the ID people put forward on the subject of cosmology. If the probability distribution function is distributed uniformly over the positive integers, then what is the probability of an outcome of, say 23? Obviously it must be less than 1%, because there's more than a hundred possible outcomes in there, and they all must (supposedly) have the same probability. But if 23 has a probability of at least 1% (0.01), then ALL of them have that same probability, and the total probability is greater than 1, violating an axiom of probability theory. Similarly, it must be less than 0.001, and less than 0.0001, and less than any positive number you might name. But it must be greater than 0. Why? Because if they all had a probability of 0, the sum total of probability would be 0, when the axiom demands it is 1. There are some calculus techniques to get around this for certain types of infinity, but not the countable infinity on display here, and not for a uniform distribution even were the infinity uncountable.

Simply put, a uniform distribution on an unbound interval containing infinite elements is mathematically impossible. It violates the basic axioms of probability theory. And anyone who's studied this beyond a high school level KNOWS that.

And the people who produced this bullshit didn't.

In other words, while we might suppose that all those numbers are possible outcomes, it is mathematically impossible for them to be EQUALLY LIKELY. Yet the math of the ID argument hinges on exactly that woefully false and obviously uneducated assumption. Some outcomes must have greater probability than others. Why then, cannot the outcome that (supposedly) favors life be 99.95%? Why not 100%, some scenario where the value couldn't have possibly been anything else? I don't know that it is... and the ID apologists don't know it isn't. They've shown exactly zero effort in trying to identify what that probability actually was. They just implied a uniform distribution (which is flatly impossible, no pun intended) and moved on quickly in hopes that no one caught their shenanigans.

And this? This is a problem with EVERY SINGLE FACTOR that they identify! They make no effort to actually measure or calculate how unlikely that particular outcome was, much less back those claimed probabilities up with the slightest shred of evidence. Nor have they shred one drop of sweat in effort in figuring out what the odds of life existing WITHOUT those factors would have been. They just boldly assert that they're necessary and do nothing to prove it.

And to be fair to them, THEY CAN'T. We only have a single universe, and as any statistician will tell you, you can't figure out how likely any outcome is with a sample size of one. And that's basic. Even a high school student should be able to tell you that. And. They. Don't. Know. It.

That right there is enough to completely discredit the argument. But there's more at work here. They often employ non-independent factors, things that are linked by physics or geometry, so that one is true if and only if the other is true, and then imply that them both being true at the same time makes the odds even more unlikely, when in fact those multiple factors were a package deal all along. Again, any high school student whose had a section on probability should understand that concept. Others are straight-out lies about how narrow the acceptable range is. The distance between the Earth and the Sun in one particularly notorious list of factors arguing that if it deviated by only a few miles life would be possible, when to all appearances the Earth could be over half of the way out to Mars's orbit and still have all the factors for life. That list also specified the distance from Earth to the moon, when we could have no moon at all and life would still be possible.

I'll trust Stephen Hawking on the rate of change of the universe preventing its recollapse (though not you to quote him accurately), and note that he doesn't attempt to assign a probability to the rate of expansion being what it was. Nor does Davies attempt to calculate whether life would be possible without stars. Frankly, that would be outside of his field. Nor does he offer even the slightest hint, so far as I can tell, of what the probabilities of the gravitational constants being anything other their present value might be.

And here's the thing. The lack of a sample size greater than one makes this kind of probabilistic analysis mathematically impossible, and we don't really know enough about what possible life forms might exist under weird conditions (a universe without stars, for example), to determine whether those alternatives would be life-bearing, whatever the probability that type of universe could have come about at all. There is no basis for this sort of calculation. None. The math here is bullshit.

Obviously I can't address every point, because the whole thing is a Gish Gallop. (If you don't know what a Gish Gallop is, look it up.) I can only illustrate the argument's overall lack of character.
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