Christian with a question....
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21-06-2016, 09:03 AM
RE: Christian with a question....
(21-06-2016 03:40 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(20-06-2016 03:57 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It irks me more than anything else the fundies say, when they claim (usually citing a Bible verse) that the reason we don't worship their God is pride.

I say it is integrity. I too would happily burn rather than serve the monster the Christians describe. I wouldn't enjoy it, no, but I would never submit to any power that demands my servitude in exchange for not being burned. I would do the same if the Daesh fighters captured me and told me to submit to Allah or be burned alive, as many brave persons have already done.

When your God is no better than an ISIS militant, you've lost.

Your analogy fails because ISIS militant are not gods. With an ISIS militant your myrtydom has some chance to effect a change in the situation. This is not the case with the scenario the OP described.

You said it yourself. Your claim that you would defy a god is all about personal integrity. Well defending your personal integrity is a stupid reason to spend an eternity in torment. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe there really are a bunch of atheists out there who are so stupid that they would defend their personal integrity by submitting themselves to horrific eternal torment. I doubt it though.

I am a betting man, and I would instantly snap up the opportunity that any random atheist who claims they would tell God to "fuck off" caves if the situation actually presented itself. I think most of the people reading this thread agree with me here but are too afraid to admit it publically.

I'm not "defending" my personal integrity, I'm stating it as a basic tenet of my personality. I know myself, and I know that no matter how horrifying the punishment to be meted out by some powerful creature (be it human or god) because I did not submit my will to its will, then I would still refuse to serve it. Indeed, the fact that it was willing to inflict punishment on me or anyone else would make it impossible for me to submit. This is who I am.

Incidentally, a significant portion of Christian theology is based around the same principle: they talk endlessly about whether they would "deny Christ" at gunpoint (or whatever), or die for what they believe. Some would, some would not. But if one of them tells me fervently that he would rather die than deny what he believes under threat, then I am inclined to believe them; they have thought about it, and they know what they would do. Indeed, we have modern-day examples of exactly this principle in action.

I don't care what change would be effected by my actions; it's not why I would refuse. I refuse on the basic principle that it is my ethical duty to resist a psychotic tyrant, even at the cost of my own life or comfort.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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22-06-2016, 12:15 AM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2016 03:57 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Christian with a question....
(21-06-2016 03:40 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Well defending your personal integrity is a stupid reason to spend an eternity in torment. Maybe I am wrong.

You've apparently never learnt that atheism in itself is reason enough for damnation. We are already damned when called before this hypothetical throne to answer for ourselves.

In other words, any defense, remonstration, or criticism of this hypothetical tyrant-god only comes after our damnation anyway.

<singing softly> Freedom's just another word / for nothing left to lose ...

When the only thing your god has to sell is fear, you can bet he's either a twatwaffle ... or the invention of another human being aiming to control you. You.
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22-06-2016, 12:44 AM
RE: Christian with a question....
This thread.

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22-06-2016, 08:48 AM
RE: Christian with a question....
(21-06-2016 09:03 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'm not "defending" my personal integrity, I'm stating it as a basic tenet of my personality. I know myself, and I know that no matter how horrifying the punishment to be meted out by some powerful creature (be it human or god) because I did not submit my will to its will, then I would still refuse to serve it. Indeed, the fact that it was willing to inflict punishment on me or anyone else would make it impossible for me to submit. This is who I am.

If you won't defend your integrity then perhaps you can defend your personality. Are you telling me you have no choice in the matter? Are you telling me that you are so stubborn in your ways that you cannot take pause and evaluate the situation in a logical rational manner? I doubt all that. You're just grasping at straws trying to find some good way to justify your position.

Suppose it was someone you loved, say a child, and you had to counsel them on what sort of action they should take if faced with this choice. Would you tell them they should choose an eternity of horrific torment rather than serve God? Be honest. If you are a loving parent, you would not.....because to choose hell is simply stupid.


(21-06-2016 09:03 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Incidentally, a significant portion of Christian theology is based around the same principle: they talk endlessly about whether they would "deny Christ" at gunpoint (or whatever), or die for what they believe. Some would, some would not. But if one of them tells me fervently that he would rather die than deny what he believes under threat, then I am inclined to believe them; they have thought about it, and they know what they would do. Indeed, we have modern-day examples of exactly this principle in action.

The situation is completely different for Christians. The Christian decides to become a martyr because he or she believes in the long run it will make them better off. A little pain and suffering in the present in exchange for an eternity of bliss is a pretty good deal.

The atheist who chooses hell over servitude is deciding to make themselves horrifically worse off for eternity just for the meager, transitory reward of being to tell God to "fuck off". It is completely irrational behavior which is why I don't believe any atheist who claims they would tell God to "fuck off". Maybe some of you boasting are really morons and would do it....but certainly not the majority. I think I am on firm ground to auto-call "bullshit" whenever an atheists makes this boast.

(21-06-2016 09:03 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I don't care what change would be effected by my actions; it's not why I would refuse. I refuse on the basic principle that it is my ethical duty to resist a psychotic tyrant, even at the cost of my own life or comfort.

Why is it your duty if it will not effect a change? What is the point of doing something if there is no meaningful tangible result?
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22-06-2016, 08:53 AM
RE: Christian with a question....
(22-06-2016 12:15 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  You've apparently never learnt that atheism in itself is reason enough for damnation. We are already damned when called before this hypothetical throne to answer for ourselves.

In other words, any defense, remonstration, or criticism of this hypothetical tyrant-god only comes after our damnation anyway.

<singing softly> Freedom's just another word / for nothing left to lose ...

When the only thing your god has to sell is fear, you can bet he's either a twatwaffle ... or the invention of another human being aiming to control you. You.

You need to re-read this thread. The choice for the atheist is damnation or a second chance when one can no longer be an atheist.
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22-06-2016, 09:08 AM
RE: Christian with a question....
(22-06-2016 08:53 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 12:15 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  You've apparently never learnt that atheism in itself is reason enough for damnation. We are already damned when called before this hypothetical throne to answer for ourselves.

In other words, any defense, remonstration, or criticism of this hypothetical tyrant-god only comes after our damnation anyway.

<singing softly> Freedom's just another word / for nothing left to lose ...

When the only thing your god has to sell is fear, you can bet he's either a twatwaffle ... or the invention of another human being aiming to control you. You.

You need to re-read this thread. The choice for the atheist is damnation or a second chance when one can no longer be an atheist.

Actually no, that wasn't the choice. If confronted by a gawd then by definition you would no longer be able to be an atheist. The choice is whether you would opt for hell or return to earth and spend this second life worshipping a cruel and sadistic tyrant.

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22-06-2016, 10:43 AM
RE: Christian with a question....
(22-06-2016 08:53 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You need to re-read this thread. The choice for the atheist is damnation or a second chance when one can no longer be an atheist.

You, and the OP, need to reread the bible. There are no second chances for atheists.
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22-06-2016, 10:50 AM
RE: Christian with a question....
(22-06-2016 10:43 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 08:53 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You need to re-read this thread. The choice for the atheist is damnation or a second chance when one can no longer be an atheist.

You, and the OP, need to reread the bible. There are no second chances for atheists.

OP couldn't take the heat. He or she pissed off. Smile
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22-06-2016, 11:01 AM
RE: Christian with a question....
(22-06-2016 10:43 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 08:53 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You need to re-read this thread. The choice for the atheist is damnation or a second chance when one can no longer be an atheist.

You, and the OP, need to reread the bible. There are no second chances for atheists.
Looking at the question, it was posed from an alternate universe with a cross between hinduism and the holey bibble.
title should have read "science-fiction-fan-hindu-christian with a question"
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22-06-2016, 11:07 AM
RE: Christian with a question....
I would totally bow. Fuck an eternity of torment. Whatever the asshole god has planned for me it's gotta be better than an eternity of torment. I can imagine being tortured forever, and I don't like the sound of it. It would suck licking the boots of a tyrannical asshole that is willing to torture others, but it beats the alternative. I'll happily shove my self respect and integrity up my own ass.

That is, if the situation was cut and dry. If he's just trying to trick me, and going to torture anyway, then I wouldn't. Plus this hypothetical situation is silly. What does it prove, exactly? That we don't like being tortured?
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