Christian with a question....
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22-06-2016, 11:42 AM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2016 11:45 AM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: Christian with a question....
(22-06-2016 11:07 AM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  I'll happily shove my self respect and integrity up my own ass.

Do you really lose self respect and integrity? The only ones who fault you for making the sane choice are the insane.
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22-06-2016, 11:44 AM
RE: Christian with a question....
(22-06-2016 10:43 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 08:53 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You need to re-read this thread. The choice for the atheist is damnation or a second chance when one can no longer be an atheist.

You, and the OP, need to reread the bible. There are no second chances for atheists.

What you are doing is shifting the goal posts. The hypothetical we are considering is laid out in the OP and not in the bible.
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22-06-2016, 12:26 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(22-06-2016 08:48 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If you won't defend your integrity then perhaps you can defend your personality. Are you telling me you have no choice in the matter? Are you telling me that you are so stubborn in your ways that you cannot take pause and evaluate the situation in a logical rational manner? I doubt all that. You're just grasping at straws trying to find some good way to justify your position.

Suppose it was someone you loved, say a child, and you had to counsel them on what sort of action they should take if faced with this choice. Would you tell them they should choose an eternity of horrific torment rather than serve God? Be honest. If you are a loving parent, you would not.....because to choose hell is simply stupid.

There is nothing illogical about saying there is no condition under which I would worship a being in exchange for not being tortured by said being. If that is the nature of god, then I will become in that hypothetical moment a theist who defies that god with every ounce of my being.

I would hope that my child also refused to serve a tyrant. I don't want him tortured any more than I want to be tortured, but I will say it one more time: I. Will. Not. Serve. A. Tyrant.

(22-06-2016 08:48 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The situation is completely different for Christians. The Christian decides to become a martyr because he or she believes in the long run it will make them better off. A little pain and suffering in the present in exchange for an eternity of bliss is a pretty good deal.

The atheist who chooses hell over servitude is deciding to make themselves horrifically worse off for eternity just for the meager, transitory reward of being to tell God to "fuck off". It is completely irrational behavior which is why I don't believe any atheist who claims they would tell God to "fuck off". Maybe some of you boasting are really morons and would do it....but certainly not the majority. I think I am on firm ground to auto-call "bullshit" whenever an atheists makes this boast.

Call it irrational if you want. Not everyone makes their decisions based on cost-benefit analysis. I feel a little bit sorry for those who do, but it's their choice, as this is mine. Christian theology is also not just about reward, cost-benefit, at least for many of them. When I was still a Christian, we not only talked about denying Christ in the face of oppression (usually it was a Communist with a gun, in our examples, since this is before everyone was afraid of Muslim psychos), we actually made videos and plays about it. Yes, they think it's a way into heaven, but Christians already believe they're going to heaven even if they say they're atheists when faced with a Communist gun. It's about the principle.

I don't care about telling God to fuck off. If God turned out to be benevolent, and said, "Despite your best intellectual efforts, you decided my messengers were unreliable and thus did not worship me. I forgive you for this error, and invite you to choose heaven or eternal oblivion", then I would choose heaven. If God explained that since I was unconvinced, I would have to be destroyed and pass into eternal oblivion, I would be okay with that, too. Them's the breaks. But I would not bow my knee to a torturous being that was worthy of only opposition.

(22-06-2016 08:48 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Why is it your duty if it will not effect a change? What is the point of doing something if there is no meaningful tangible result?

If you don't already understand the principle of duty, there are no words I could write that would ever get you to understand.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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22-06-2016, 12:51 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(22-06-2016 11:07 AM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  I would totally bow. Fuck an eternity of torment. Whatever the asshole god has planned for me it's gotta be better than an eternity of torment. I can imagine being tortured forever, and I don't like the sound of it. It would suck licking the boots of a tyrannical asshole that is willing to torture others, but it beats the alternative. I'll happily shove my self respect and integrity up my own ass.

That is, if the situation was cut and dry. If he's just trying to trick me, and going to torture anyway, then I wouldn't. Plus this hypothetical situation is silly. What does it prove, exactly? That we don't like being tortured?

It also posits a really stupid god, he's completely aware that the people he's threatening completely despise him, yet he's ok with that knowledge as long as he gets the groveling he so desires. Facepalm

There is no principle at stake here, just threat and response.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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22-06-2016, 01:04 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(22-06-2016 11:42 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 11:07 AM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  I'll happily shove my self respect and integrity up my own ass.

Do you really lose self respect and integrity? The only ones who fault you for making the sane choice are the insane.

Uh, yes. Because I'd be serving and worshipping the psychotic monster depicted in the bible.
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22-06-2016, 02:43 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(22-06-2016 12:26 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I would hope that my child also refused to serve a tyrant. I don't want him tortured any more than I want to be tortured, but I will say it one more time: I. Will. Not. Serve. A. Tyrant.

Does this mean you would counsel your child to choose eternal torment?
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22-06-2016, 03:19 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(22-06-2016 02:43 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 12:26 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I would hope that my child also refused to serve a tyrant. I don't want him tortured any more than I want to be tortured, but I will say it one more time: I. Will. Not. Serve. A. Tyrant.

Does this mean you would counsel your child to choose eternal torment?

Give it a rest you silly twat. The situation of the OP is ludicrous.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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22-06-2016, 03:33 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(22-06-2016 02:43 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 12:26 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I would hope that my child also refused to serve a tyrant. I don't want him tortured any more than I want to be tortured, but I will say it one more time: I. Will. Not. Serve. A. Tyrant.

Does this mean you would counsel your child to choose eternal torment?

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Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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22-06-2016, 03:59 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(22-06-2016 02:43 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 12:26 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I would hope that my child also refused to serve a tyrant. I don't want him tortured any more than I want to be tortured, but I will say it one more time: I. Will. Not. Serve. A. Tyrant.

Does this mean you would counsel your child to choose eternal torment?

The real options are to believe and nothing happens, or don't believe and nothing happens.

What difference does it make which one you choose?
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22-06-2016, 04:04 PM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2016 04:17 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Christian with a question....
(22-06-2016 12:26 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I would hope that my child also refused to serve a tyrant. I don't want him tortured any more than I want to be tortured, but I will say it one more time: I. Will. Not. Serve. A. Tyrant.

Morning star defied the tyrant and he was punished with dominion over earth. Something about Br'er Rabbit and a briar patch.

#sigh
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