Christian with a question....
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23-06-2016, 05:30 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 05:24 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 05:07 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  But do you feel that a tyrannical God as He is described in the Bible is entitled to your respect, worship and Awe?

I've never read the bible so I am not really equipped to answer that question.....but I will try anyways....by asking you some questions.

If God created you, why cannot God create you with obligations? For instance why can't God create you with an obligation to love and respect your fellow men? If God can create you with an obligation to love and respect your fellow men, why can't God create you with an obligation that you love and respect him?

Just because something made you doesn't mean you are obligated to do whatever it wants you to do, we still have free will. That's like any parent who brings a child into this world and then does terrible abusive things to them and may even ask them to commit a crime and then they have to decide if they should follow this person who gave them life or do the right thing and reject them.

We don't have to love or respect our fellow man if they are immoral so the same is true for any God, if we judge them to be unworthy than we don't have to love or respect or even like them just because they made us.

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23-06-2016, 05:36 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 05:30 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 05:24 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I've never read the bible so I am not really equipped to answer that question.....but I will try anyways....by asking you some questions.

If God created you, why cannot God create you with obligations? For instance why can't God create you with an obligation to love and respect your fellow men? If God can create you with an obligation to love and respect your fellow men, why can't God create you with an obligation that you love and respect him?

Just because something made you doesn't mean you are obligated to do whatever it wants you to do, we still have free will. That's like any parent who brings a child into this world and then does terrible abusive things to them and may even ask them to commit a crime and then they have to decide if they should follow this person who gave them life or do the right thing and reject them.

We don't have to love or respect our fellow man if they are immoral so the same is true for any God, if we judge them to be unworthy than we don't have to love or respect or even like them just because they made us.

So what your saying is that God cannot create a creature with an obligation to do X but allow it not to do X if it chooses? Please correct me if I have your position wrong.

Just because someone is free to ignore an obligation that doesn't mean the obligation no longer exists. Free will and obligations are independent and distinct from each other.
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23-06-2016, 05:39 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 05:28 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 05:19 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  If someone said you would be tortured or a child will be tortured you'd probably take it on yourself right? That's because your emotional connection to this child and your empathy for another person's pain is strong than your resolve to protect yourself from pain. Even animals have been shown to display empathy in this way, starving so their child can eat for example.

In the example you give here, a decision to accept horrific torture effects a change. You are worse off, but someone is better off. In the OP, no such trade off occurs. You are worse off or you are better off. The only rational decision is to choose to make yourself better off.

Why do you assume someone would be better off in this new life? We still don't know the nature of this God. All we know is that he thinks it's fun to force a being that is weaker and dumber than he is to accept his bargain to live a life where you fear him and do whatever he wants forever even after death or you burn. With that being said I'd think we would probably be rewarded by dismissing him entirely, a moral being wouldn't present such an offer and a moral person shouldn't accept it.

It would probably be some sort of test so I would say "Yes I will burn, I don't see any reason to accept your offer just to live a life where I have no free will and am bound to you and to serve as your slave even if that means committing acts I find to be morally abhorrent." I would still want to hold fast to my own morals and values so I have no choice but to burn and if he can't respect that then he's the one who is wrong.

Just imagine you are a prisoner of war, you can be freed to go home and will have to do whatever this warden wants you to do the rest of your life out of fear, maybe they want you to fight against your own government or you will be tortured for years and years and then die in pain. Which do you choose? If you choose to live that makes sense, but you don't have control, you are living in perpetual fear of your master, doing what he says or you can take on the pain, with your morality and free will in tact. It just depends, are your morals and values more important to you than pain?

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23-06-2016, 05:41 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 05:36 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 05:30 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  Just because something made you doesn't mean you are obligated to do whatever it wants you to do, we still have free will. That's like any parent who brings a child into this world and then does terrible abusive things to them and may even ask them to commit a crime and then they have to decide if they should follow this person who gave them life or do the right thing and reject them.

We don't have to love or respect our fellow man if they are immoral so the same is true for any God, if we judge them to be unworthy than we don't have to love or respect or even like them just because they made us.

So what your saying is that God cannot create a creature with an obligation to do X but allow it not to do X if it chooses? Please correct me if I have your position wrong.

Just because someone is free to ignore an obligation that doesn't mean the obligation no longer exists. Free will and obligations are independent and distinct from each other.

Do we have any idea who this God is in this scenario, how can we be obligated to love or respect something we can't see or hear? That doesn't make sense, we should never feel obligated to do anything that goes against our morals and values, no matter how much power this being has or whether or not they "created" you and especially when this being never makes themselves known to us, than I have clue what I'm obligated to do.

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23-06-2016, 05:57 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 05:36 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  So what your saying is that God cannot create a creature with an obligation to do X but allow it not to do X if it chooses? Please correct me if I have your position wrong.

Just because someone is free to ignore an obligation that doesn't mean the obligation no longer exists. Free will and obligations are independent and distinct from each other.

Heywood. By your own admission, you have never read the bible. You have zero knowledge about which you speak.

Go away, read the bible, then come back.

Your level of ignorance is astounding. Facepalm

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I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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23-06-2016, 06:02 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 05:08 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 04:56 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  Just because in your estimation one option is worse doesn't make the being presenting the two options merciful or just. Considering he's in control of our souls and we only have the one choice he's proven himself to be a psychotic ego maniac who created us but also can't accept our flawed nature so feels the need to judge us? Once judged we can be spiritually leashed to him on bended knee or burn? I don't see how anyone wouldn't dismiss him entirely and I'd still rather embrace the "worse" option with my integrity in tact even if I burn for it.

Its not my estimation. People talk big but when the torture kicks in they cave and will say or do anything to stop it. People can't stand extreme pain. This observation allows me to correctly conclude that one choice is clearly better than the other.

I might be wrong in one assumption I make. I assume that IF given the choice an atheist will consider what is commonly know about human nature. Realize that he/she isn't special, and despite wanting to do what their emotions tell they want to do, they will, in the end, use the higher functioning parts on their brain and make the only ration decision.....which is to cave.

Am I wrong here?
Yes you are wrong here. Someone who is as your God is described would probably cave as you say it, but someone with integrity would not. I decided at 17 that any God such as the Bible describes him has no respect coming from me. That was decades before I realized I had the option of accepting life at face value. People who have no moral compass would probably decide to be slaves, but I certainly hope I have enuff fortitude to reject such a fate.
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23-06-2016, 06:05 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 05:36 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 05:30 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  Just because something made you doesn't mean you are obligated to do whatever it wants you to do, we still have free will. That's like any parent who brings a child into this world and then does terrible abusive things to them and may even ask them to commit a crime and then they have to decide if they should follow this person who gave them life or do the right thing and reject them.

We don't have to love or respect our fellow man if they are immoral so the same is true for any God, if we judge them to be unworthy than we don't have to love or respect or even like them just because they made us.

So what your saying is that God cannot create a creature with an obligation to do X but allow it not to do X if it chooses? Please correct me if I have your position wrong.

Just because someone is free to ignore an obligation that doesn't mean the obligation no longer exists. Free will and obligations are independent and distinct from each other.
When man created God why couldn't man have put a bit more thought into it and made a sane God? You say you haven't read the Babble, so which God are you postulating?
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23-06-2016, 06:12 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 05:41 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  ...we should never feel obligated to do anything that goes against our morals....

You think of morals like they are lips and assholes....everyone has them. The Nazi's believed they were being moral by trying to exterminate the jews. By your thinking....a Nazi should never feel obligated to save a jew. What you feel you should be obligated to do....has nothing to do with your actual obligations.

How does one justify worshiping and respecting the God of the old testament? It is easy if they accept the following argument:

Premise 1. God created humans with an obligation to love, respect, and hold God in awe.
Premise 2. John is a human.
Conclusion: John has an obligation to love, respect, and hold God in awe.

The above is a valid argument. It may not be true(because a premise can be false)....but it is valid because the conclusion follows from the premises. Now if we assume the premises are true for the sake of argument, the conclusion holds despite whatever actions God has took or plans to take. God's actions are independent of our obligations.
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23-06-2016, 06:17 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 05:39 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 05:28 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  In the example you give here, a decision to accept horrific torture effects a change. You are worse off, but someone is better off. In the OP, no such trade off occurs. You are worse off or you are better off. The only rational decision is to choose to make yourself better off.

Why do you assume someone would be better off in this new life? We still don't know the nature of this God. All we know is that he thinks it's fun to force a being that is weaker and dumber than he is to accept his bargain to live a life where you fear him and do whatever he wants forever even after death or you burn. With that being said I'd think we would probably be rewarded by dismissing him entirely, a moral being wouldn't present such an offer and a moral person shouldn't accept it.

It would probably be some sort of test so I would say "Yes I will burn, I don't see any reason to accept your offer just to live a life where I have no free will and am bound to you and to serve as your slave even if that means committing acts I find to be morally abhorrent." I would still want to hold fast to my own morals and values so I have no choice but to burn and if he can't respect that then he's the one who is wrong.

Just imagine you are a prisoner of war, you can be freed to go home and will have to do whatever this warden wants you to do the rest of your life out of fear, maybe they want you to fight against your own government or you will be tortured for years and years and then die in pain. Which do you choose? If you choose to live that makes sense, but you don't have control, you are living in perpetual fear of your master, doing what he says or you can take on the pain, with your morality and free will in tact. It just depends, are your morals and values more important to you than pain?

Believing it is sort of a test would change things. If an atheist claimed they would tell God to "fuck off" because they believed God was testing them....I don't have a problem with that. However it seems to me that whenever an atheist claims they would tell God to "fuck off" it is out of spite....and acting out of spite is simply moronic, especially so when it only makes you worse off.
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23-06-2016, 06:17 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 06:12 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 05:41 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  ...we should never feel obligated to do anything that goes against our morals....

You think of morals like they are lips and assholes....everyone has them. The Nazi's believed they were being moral by trying to exterminate the jews. By your thinking....a Nazi should never feel obligated to save a jew. What you feel you should be obligated to do....has nothing to do with your actual obligations.

How does one justify worshiping and respecting the God of the old testament? It is easy if they accept the following argument:

Premise 1. God created humans with an obligation to love, respect, and hold God in awe.
Premise 2. John is a human.
Conclusion: John has an obligation to love, respect, and hold God in awe.

The above is a valid argument. It may not be true(because a premise can be false)....but it is valid because the conclusion follows from the premises. Now if we assume the premises are true for the sake of argument, the conclusion holds despite whatever actions God has took or plans to take. God's actions are independent of our obligations.

THe Old Testament is sometimes called the Old Covenant. And a covenant is an agreement between two beings and outlines the obligations of each to the other. If you'd ever read the Babble you'd see that God supposedly made promises to "His peeps" that He never kept.
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