Christian with a question....
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23-06-2016, 06:20 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 06:05 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 05:36 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  So what your saying is that God cannot create a creature with an obligation to do X but allow it not to do X if it chooses? Please correct me if I have your position wrong.

Just because someone is free to ignore an obligation that doesn't mean the obligation no longer exists. Free will and obligations are independent and distinct from each other.
When man created God why couldn't man have put a bit more thought into it and made a sane God? You say you haven't read the Babble, so which God are you postulating?

My God is the God of logic and reason. The people around me worship a God of Love and redemption. While I appreciate love and redemption, that isn't what I dwell upon every day of my life.
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23-06-2016, 06:23 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 06:12 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 05:41 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  ...we should never feel obligated to do anything that goes against our morals....

You think of morals like they are lips and assholes....everyone has them. The Nazi's believed they were being moral by trying to exterminate the jews. By your thinking....a Nazi should never feel obligated to save a jew. What you feel you should be obligated to do....has nothing to do with your actual obligations.

How does one justify worshiping and respecting the God of the old testament? It is easy if they accept the following argument:

Premise 1. God created humans with an obligation to love, respect, and hold God in awe.
Premise 2. John is a human.
Conclusion: John has an obligation to love, respect, and hold God in awe.

The above is a valid argument. It may not be true(because a premise can be false)....but it is valid because the conclusion follows from the premises. Now if we assume the premises are true for the sake of argument, the conclusion holds despite whatever actions God has took or plans to take. God's actions are independent of our obligations.

The above is not a valid argument, since John is still a human with his own nature and that nature can be effected by his own life experiences and morals, he doesn't have to love or respect God if God's laws are contrary to his own personal ethics, it's still a hypothetical anyway since no creator Gods are known to exist and you have yet to define this God in any way so I can only assume you mean Yahweh.

I wouldn't agree that every human has morals, can a psychopath have morals? If you lack empathy your actions will have one singular motive which is your own survival and interests, even if killing innocents get's you what you want. So in that case they lack morality in a traditional sense.

A Nazi would argue they were moral, perhaps they killed Jews because they felt they were evil for killing Jesus or they were jealous because they are their God's chosen people, or they thought Jews were out to kill them, etc. They would be wrong of course but they would have their own justifications for their evil deeds and perhaps felt "obligated" to follow the orders of their leader who they loved and respected. You can see how that can get you into trouble.

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23-06-2016, 06:27 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
I still don't see what this hypothetical situation the OP presented proves, other than we don't like pain.
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23-06-2016, 06:28 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 06:12 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Premise 1. God created humans with an obligation to love, respect, and hold God in awe.
Premise 2. John is a human.
Conclusion: John has an obligation to love, respect, and hold God in awe.

If only xians were this wise...

They are irreverent to the gods and disobedient to our edicts, lenient as they are. For we allow none of them to be dragged to the altars unwillingly... It is therefore my pleasure to announce and publish to all the people by this edict, that they must not abet the seditions of the clergy … They may hold their meetings, if they wish, and offer prayers according to their established use … and for the future, let all people live in harmony … Men should be taught and won over by reason, not by blows, insults, and corporal punishments. I therefore most earnestly admonish the adherents of the true religion not to injure or insult the Galilaeans in any way … Those who are in the wrong in matters of supreme importance are objects of pity rather than of hate ...
Julian. Edict of Bostra.

Heywood, I pity you your ignorance.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
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23-06-2016, 06:31 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 06:17 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  THe Old Testament is sometimes called the Old Covenant. And a covenant is an agreement between two beings and outlines the obligations of each to the other. If you'd ever read the Babble you'd see that God supposedly made promises to "His peeps" that He never kept.

God and I have never closed any deals together. I don't think we ever will.

Did I answer your question about how one can love, respect, and hold in awe the God of the old testament satisfactory?
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23-06-2016, 06:32 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 06:31 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Did I answer your question about how one can love, respect, and hold in awe the God of the testament satisfactory?

You cannot. You have never read the bible.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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23-06-2016, 06:35 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 06:32 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 06:31 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Did I answer your question about how one can love, respect, and hold in awe the God of the testament satisfactory?

You cannot. You have never read the bible.

He paints himself into corners. He should patent it.

#sigh
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23-06-2016, 06:38 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 06:27 PM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  I still don't see what this hypothetical situation the OP presented proves, other than we don't like pain.

I'm not sure where the OP was going either. The problem I had is that when people indulged him they said they would take a course of action that I find completely moronic and therefore generally unbelievable. So I called bullshit.
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23-06-2016, 06:41 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 06:20 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(23-06-2016 06:05 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  When man created God why couldn't man have put a bit more thought into it and made a sane God? You say you haven't read the Babble, so which God are you postulating?

My God is the God of logic and reason. The people around me worship a God of Love and redemption. While I appreciate love and redemption, that isn't what I dwell upon every day of my life.

Who is this God of logic and reason? Is it the same God of the Christian Bible, both old and new testaments? Because I gotta say he's not all that logical or reasonable.

If we are talking about pure logic here and let's say an example of a logical being would be Spock from Star Trek I have to say your God is very different. First of all Spock would never feel jealous and even if he did he wouldn't be driven into a rage because someone refused to bow to him, he wouldn't even want to bowed to in the first place.

Your God is emotional, he picks favorites, he feels petty feelings like jealousy and anger, I have no idea who this God you are worshiping is but for one thing a logical God can still be loving and secondly can you prove this God even exists? If you can't you are believing on faith, which is highly illogical.

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23-06-2016, 06:45 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(23-06-2016 06:41 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  Your God is emotional, he picks favorites, he feels petty feelings like jealousy and anger, I have no idea who this God you are worshiping is but for one thing a logical God can still be loving and secondly can you prove this God even exists? If you can't you are believing on faith, which is highly illogical.

Atheists always seem to think they know who the God of a theist is. I find it comical that you guys think you can read minds.
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