Christian with a question....
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
13-06-2016, 11:41 PM (This post was last modified: 14-06-2016 12:06 AM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: Christian with a question....
(13-06-2016 08:08 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 08:03 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Counter question: If a human being acted in the way that God does in the Bible (Mass genocide, mass infanticide, torture, persecution for thought crime, demands for human sacrifice, the allowing of mass rape and slavery, the instigation of multiple aggressive and expansionist wars, the mass execution of dissidents, the specific and intentional targeting of civilian populations of no military value, so forth and so on) that human being would be declared a monster. Rightfully so I might add as, you may recognize, that almost all of the above actions are WAR CRIMES.
So the question is why do you, as a Christian, hold a god (who according to your scripture is the creator and basis for all morality) to a LOWER standard of morality than a fallible human being?

If ever there is a Judgement Day that is just and lawful it will be US judging HIM.

I feel your question, but in terms of rationality, there is no real choice here. It doesn't matter how evil the being may be in this hypothesis. He has the ability to damn you to eternal torture or not. No amount of personal higher morality trumps that.
I'd love to know how you feel a question you have entirely dodged. Drinking Beverage

The question was why does a christian hold the supposed creator and source of morality to a LOWER moral standard that we hold regular human beings. And your response is no less than..... "because he has a gun to our head". And yes there is a very much areal choice here if one is not a coward, that being to do the right thing and suffer what may or to lick the boots of a genocidal tyrant. Yours is a bloody handed god, and worthy of resistance not submission.

It's a good thing he does not exist, but still.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like WhiskeyDebates's post
14-06-2016, 01:00 AM (This post was last modified: 14-06-2016 02:11 AM by Glossophile.)
RE: Christian with a question....
First of all, I'm going to assume we're talking about the deity that many Christians believe in, who hates homosexuals, opposes abortion, etc. I'm going to assume too that I would retain my memories of meeting Yahweh and learning that he is in fact real.

My response would be to agree to return to Earth and live a god-fearing life, but aside from acknowledging that this god exists, I would not behave much if at all differently from how I did as an atheist. I would certainly not abide by his hateful, divisive, and repressive dictates. And if and when he gets angry at my apparent breach of contract, I'd just say the following:

"What? You asked me to live a god-fearing life, and that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm terrified of you! You didn't say anything about obeying you or respecting you. You simply said 'fearing,' because apparently, fear is all that really matters to you! Fearing you is easy, 'cause you're both incredibly powerful and incredibly screwed up, but if it's respect or even love that you want, then you may as well just go ahead and send me to Hell, 'cause I just can't give you that. Even if it means eternal agony, I am literally incapable of it."

Alternatively, I might go back to Earth and become the best Pastafarian preacher ever, and when Yahweh throws a fit, I'd just say. "What? You never said which god I had to fear! Besides, I really like the Parmesan cheese they serve at communion!"

Of course, before I even made the choice, I'd be at least sorely tempted to bombard him with as many "WTF" questions as I could before he cut me off, such as...

W the F would you need to test a man's loyalty by asking him to kill his own son? Even if you planned to call it off all along, why the F is that kind of loyalty desirable to you?
Why the F would you create a race of beings, presumably knowing that they'd disappoint you, and then throw a genocidal temper tantrum when that prediction comes to pass?
Why the F did the first three commandments all boil down to, "Love me and only me," while not one says "BTW, the whole owning-other-humans-as-property thing: not cool"?
Why the F did you think it was even remotely righteous and fair for a single man to take on everyone's responsibility for every sin they ever committed or ever will commit?
Why the F did you think it was even remotely righteous and fair to react to the offense of a single couple by cursing all of their descendants before they're even born?

The only sacred truth in science is that there are no sacred truths. – Carl Sagan
Sōla vēritās sancta in philosophiā nātūrālī est absentia vēritātum sanctārum.
Ἡ μόνη ἱερᾱ̀ ἀληθείᾱ ἐν φυσικῇ φιλοσοφίᾳ ἐστίν ἡ ἱερῶν ἀληθειῶν σπάνις.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 8 users Like Glossophile's post
14-06-2016, 07:17 AM
RE: Christian with a question....
(13-06-2016 10:42 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 08:08 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I feel your question, but in terms of rationality, there is no real choice here. It doesn't matter how evil the being may be in this hypothesis. He has the ability to damn you to eternal torture or not. No amount of personal higher morality trumps that.

Might makes right, am I right? Just following orders.

Resistance might -- or might not be -- irrational, but rationality is not the only justification for human action. A theist of all people should understand this.

Dying to save my mother's life would have no rational value at all. I'm an adult who doesn't rely on her support, she is too old to bear children, and so on. Yet I would do it in a heartbeat, based on emotion, an irrational response ... and there's not a thing wrong with that.

Not all atheists define everything in terms of rationality.

LIke the Bible doesn't say: No greater love has any man than a mother cat who would die defending her kittens.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Born Again Pagan's post
14-06-2016, 07:40 AM
RE: Christian with a question....
(13-06-2016 08:45 PM)ImFred Wrote:  
(13-06-2016 08:08 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I feel your question, but in terms of rationality, there is no real choice here. It doesn't matter how evil the being may be in this hypothesis. He has the ability to damn you to eternal torture or not. No amount of personal higher morality trumps that.

That's what I'm saying.

If your god is omnipotent, then he´ll figure out if you are honestly thinking "fuck you, i am more moral than you" or if you are thinking "fuck you, but i am a fucking coward so ill obey"(= trying to place a safe bet) .

Whom do you think hell be throwing deeper into his pit of fire? The guy who is honest about his morals, or the one bowing down while thinking/hoping god is too stupid to know what he really thinks (= insulting gods omniscient intellect).

Pascals wager is so stupid, it almost hurts.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Deesse23's post
14-06-2016, 11:49 AM
RE: Christian with a question....
Mr. Bornagainpagan, I'm obvisously not as well studied as you as I've never read or heard of a story where God demands everyone in a certain city be killed except the comely young women who are then to be available for certain peoples pleasure. I can't imagine God doing such a thing, altho I can't quote every passage of the Bible. Could you possibly clarify that for me?

As far as my original question goes, it's interesting that as human that we can always find a way to justify whatever it is we want. You certainly have a right in this country to feel any way you wish and I hope that works out OK for you.

But consider this:I'm willing to bet a good many of you believe in evolution. I do too, to some extent. Lets take procreation as an example. Isn't that about the most pleasurable sensation you know of? If not, I'd sure like to know what is better? Did it get that way by evolution? Of all the other possibilities, from being not at all pleasurable, maybe even painful, to as fantastically pleasurable as it is, that it just turned out that way by dumb luck? You can't be serious! Of all the other possibilities, evolution just happened, for no good reason to cause the sensation of intercourse to be the single most pleasurable experience two people can share? This is the one thing where it's pretty easy to realize that a Creator that wanted to insure the population of the earth did so by making sure it was so pleasurable that we would not pass up any reasonable opportunity to engage in it.

Phu Cat
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-06-2016, 11:55 AM
RE: Christian with a question....
(14-06-2016 11:49 AM)Phu Cat Wrote:  Mr. Bornagainpagan, I'm obvisously not as well studied as you as I've never read or heard of a story where God demands everyone in a certain city be killed except the comely young women who are then to be available for certain peoples pleasure. I can't imagine God doing such a thing, altho I can't quote every passage of the Bible. Could you possibly clarify that for me?

As far as my original question goes, it's interesting that as human that we can always find a way to justify whatever it is we want. You certainly have a right in this country to feel any way you wish and I hope that works out OK for you.

But consider this:I'm willing to bet a good many of you believe in evolution. I do too, to some extent. Lets take procreation as an example. Isn't that about the most pleasurable sensation you know of? If not, I'd sure like to know what is better? Did it get that way by evolution? Of all the other possibilities, from being not at all pleasurable, maybe even painful, to as fantastically pleasurable as it is, that it just turned out that way by dumb luck? You can't be serious! Of all the other possibilities, evolution just happened, for no good reason to cause the sensation of intercourse to be the single most pleasurable experience two people can share? This is the one thing where it's pretty easy to realize that a Creator that wanted to insure the population of the earth did so by making sure it was so pleasurable that we would not pass up any reasonable opportunity to engage in it.

Phu Cat

Wow, m'kay. Isn't a simpler explanation (Occam's Razor) that it's pleasurable because that reward system in the brain helps insure that those who have it will reproduce more often, and thus make it possibly the most heavily favored system for Natural Selection?

However, sexual reproduction (as a mechanism) actually refers to DNA which is not reproduced by simple division/mitosis, and evolved long before multicellular life existed, let alone brain systems. The reward system came later.

None of this had anything to do with God, even if you believe that God is the one who made evolution happen.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
14-06-2016, 11:55 AM
RE: Christian with a question....
(14-06-2016 11:49 AM)Phu Cat Wrote:  Mr. Bornagainpagan, I'm obvisously not as well studied as you as I've never read or heard of a story where God demands everyone in a certain city be killed except the comely young women who are then to be available for certain peoples pleasure. I can't imagine God doing such a thing, altho I can't quote every passage of the Bible. Could you possibly clarify that for me?

As far as my original question goes, it's interesting that as human that we can always find a way to justify whatever it is we want. You certainly have a right in this country to feel any way you wish and I hope that works out OK for you.

But consider this:I'm willing to bet a good many of you believe in evolution. I do too, to some extent. Lets take procreation as an example. Isn't that about the most pleasurable sensation you know of? If not, I'd sure like to know what is better? Did it get that way by evolution? Of all the other possibilities, from being not at all pleasurable, maybe even painful, to as fantastically pleasurable as it is, that it just turned out that way by dumb luck? You can't be serious! Of all the other possibilities, evolution just happened, for no good reason to cause the sensation of intercourse to be the single most pleasurable experience two people can share? This is the one thing where it's pretty easy to realize that a Creator that wanted to insure the population of the earth did so by making sure it was so pleasurable that we would not pass up any reasonable opportunity to engage in it.

Phu Cat

Why is sex pleasurable for other mammalians? Not even talking about other primates.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes kingschosen's post
14-06-2016, 12:08 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(14-06-2016 11:49 AM)Phu Cat Wrote:  [size=medium]

But consider this:I'm willing to bet a good many of you believe in evolution. I do too, to some extent. Lets take procreation as an example. Isn't that about the most pleasurable sensation you know of? If not, I'd sure like to know what is better? Did it get that way by evolution? Of all the other possibilities, from being not at all pleasurable, maybe even painful, to as fantastically pleasurable as it is, that it just turned out that way by dumb luck? You can't be serious! Of all the other possibilities, evolution just happened, for no good reason to cause the sensation of intercourse to be the single most pleasurable experience two people can share? This is the one thing where it's pretty easy to realize that a Creator that wanted to insure the population of the earth did so by making sure it was so pleasurable that we would not pass up any reasonable opportunity to engage in it.

Sex is pleasurable because of evolution, sex is painful for certain animal species actually so if your God created every living thing and wanted them to procreate why did he set it up where some animals have to die in order to give birth?

A simple Google search of "Why does sex feel good?" brought up many sites and articles that explain the biological and natural reasons why we feel pleasure during sex , there is no God needed.

Also let's take your assumption as true, why did God make it so pleasurable and then put so many rules in place to stop it from being enjoyable? He has so many rules against "fornication" or sex for pleasure, he only wants you to have sex after marriage and to have children only, women aren't allowed to enjoy it and you better not have gay sex, that's just wrong.

He would've been better off making it as painful as possible, he does make a big deal out of making childbirth as painful as possible for women, why? We're not even allowed to masturbate, apparently this is self-rape and a sin against your own body, wow thanks God, you gave us this part of our body and brains that feels so good but we can't even experience it unless we are in the marriage bed and my husband is forbidden to go anywhere near my clitoris because I can't possibly have an orgasm, that would make me a whore. You really need to read your Bible, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

[Image: sagansig_zps6vhbql6m.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes SitaSky's post
14-06-2016, 12:09 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(14-06-2016 11:49 AM)Phu Cat Wrote:  Mr. Bornagainpagan, I'm obvisously not as well studied as you as I've never read or heard of a story where God demands everyone in a certain city be killed except the comely young women who are then to be available for certain peoples pleasure. I can't imagine God doing such a thing, altho I can't quote every passage of the Bible. Could you possibly clarify that for me?

Quote:Numbers
31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

31:8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

31:9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

31:10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

31:12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

31:13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

I assume we don't have to clarify that further? Drinking Beverage

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Fatbaldhobbit's post
14-06-2016, 12:33 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(14-06-2016 12:09 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(14-06-2016 11:49 AM)Phu Cat Wrote:  Mr. Bornagainpagan, I'm obvisously not as well studied as you as I've never read or heard of a story where God demands everyone in a certain city be killed except the comely young women who are then to be available for certain peoples pleasure. I can't imagine God doing such a thing, altho I can't quote every passage of the Bible. Could you possibly clarify that for me?

Quote:Numbers
31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

31:8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

31:9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

31:10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

31:12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

31:13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

I assume we don't have to clarify that further? Drinking Beverage

Oh but those were different times and the Midianites were evil. Dodgy

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like morondog's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: