Christian with a question....
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14-06-2016, 04:24 PM (This post was last modified: 14-06-2016 04:27 PM by GenesisNemesis.)
RE: Christian with a question....
Since god is alright with punishing someone eternally for not believing, why would I trust him? That doesn't seem like a smart way to gain someone's trust.

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14-06-2016, 04:39 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
Holy shit not a drive by!

So for the first question I'm kinda confused. When you are born you have no memories. How could you keep a promise to "live a godly life" if all knowledge and certainty are wiped from your head upon birth? What would stop us, given the lack of empirical evidence that put us off the first time, from coming to the exact same conclusion the second time? Or coming to believe in a different religion? Do we keep getting sent back until we luck out and pick the right religion? This question just has a lot of issues for me.

As to your point about evolution, I doubt you understand it. Why would there NEED to be a god in order for sex to be pleasurable? Wouldn't organisms for whom sex was more pleasurable tend to do it more often? And since they were doing it more often, wouldn't that trait naturally spread through the population over time? I don't see a need for a god in that.
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14-06-2016, 05:44 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(14-06-2016 11:49 AM)Phu Cat Wrote:  Mr. Bornagainpagan, I'm obviously not as well studied as you as I've never read or heard of a story where God demands everyone in a certain city be killed...
Exodus 32:

—25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies.

—26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the Lord, come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him.

—27 Then he said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbour."

—28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.

—29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day".

Quote:I'm willing to bet a good many of you believe in evolution. I do too, to some extent.
Poorly phrased. Atheists do not believe in evolution. We accept the empirical evidence that supports its scientific tenets. Belief requires no evidence.

Quote:You can't be serious!
Sorry. This sort of derogatory comment doesn't help your case at all.

Quote:Of all the other possibilities, evolution just happened, for no good reason to cause the sensation of intercourse to be the single most pleasurable experience two people can share?
You're obviously very young to believe this. And of course it's totally erroneous. Personally, I've invariably experienced more pleasurable orgasms with Mrs Palmer and her five daughters.

Quote:This is the one thing where it's pretty easy to realize that a Creator that wanted to insure the population of the earth did so by making sure it was so pleasurable that we would not pass up any reasonable opportunity to engage in it.
Major non sequitur. Look it up.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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14-06-2016, 05:52 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(14-06-2016 05:44 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(14-06-2016 11:49 AM)Phu Cat Wrote:  Mr. Bornagainpagan, I'm obviously not as well studied as you as I've never read or heard of a story where God demands everyone in a certain city be killed...
Exodus 32:

—25 Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies.

—26 So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the Lord, come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him.

—27 Then he said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbour."

—28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.

—29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day".

Quote:I'm willing to bet a good many of you believe in evolution. I do too, to some extent.
Poorly phrased. Atheists do not believe in evolution. We accept the empirical evidence that supports its scientific tenets. Belief requires no evidence.

Quote:You can't be serious!
Sorry. This sort of derogatory comment doesn't help your case at all.

Quote:Of all the other possibilities, evolution just happened, for no good reason to cause the sensation of intercourse to be the single most pleasurable experience two people can share?
You're obviously very young to believe this. And of course it's totally erroneous. Personally, I've invariably experienced more pleasurable orgasms with Mrs Palmer and her five daughters.

Quote:This is the one thing where it's pretty easy to realize that a Creator that wanted to insure the population of the earth did so by making sure it was so pleasurable that we would not pass up any reasonable opportunity to engage in it.
Major non sequitur. Look it up.

Loathe as I am to break open certain parts of the Bible...some more for that first bit on replying to the whole "certain cities be killed" deal:
1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ”

(Also ignore the fact that King Saul supposedly wiped out the Amalekites and then in 1 Samuel 15 and 1 Samuel 30 they reappear.)

Need to think of a witty signature.
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14-06-2016, 05:55 PM (This post was last modified: 14-06-2016 07:53 PM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: Christian with a question....
(14-06-2016 11:49 AM)Phu Cat Wrote:  But consider this:I'm willing to bet a good many of you believe in evolution. I do too, to some extent.
If you believe that evolution works but only to a certain extent (which I'd bet dollars to dimes that line didn't come from any actual like...facts or a credible scientist) then no you do not. You accept the theory or you don't, it's not a fucking Build-A-Bear where you can walk in and pick the parts that suit you fine and ignore the ones you don't like.

(14-06-2016 11:49 AM)Phu Cat Wrote:  Lets take procreation as an example.
Sure, why not. Shoot.

(14-06-2016 11:49 AM)Phu Cat Wrote:  Isn't that about the most pleasurable sensation you know of? If not, I'd sure like to know what is better?
Depends on the person. The actual "pleasure" is due to chemical reactions in the brain, and for some people those actions don't illicit the same reactions, or reactions that are as strong, as other peoples.
However for the sake of the argument lets say sure, fucking is the end all be all of "pleasure".

(14-06-2016 11:49 AM)Phu Cat Wrote:  Did it get that way by evolution?
Yes. EVERYTHING biological in nature got that way by evolution that is the entire POINT of the theory of evolution.

(14-06-2016 11:49 AM)Phu Cat Wrote:  Of all the other possibilities, from being not at all pleasurable, maybe even painful, to as fantastically pleasurable as it is, that it just turned out that way by dumb luck? You can't be serious!
And here is where you put your personal ignorance of evolution on display. Also your tendency to create dishonest strawmman argument as no one here as ever claimed that it happens by "dumb luck" but lets just gloss over that and get at the meat.
That you think evolution is a product of "dumb luck" means you are entirely ignorant of the most basic parts of evolution and are thus unqualified. Evolution is not dumb luck. A species that, to use your example, has painful reproduction is not likely to reproduce and thus will go extinct. Humans have pleasurable reproduction because it is a evolutionary trait that aids in reproduction.

(14-06-2016 11:49 AM)Phu Cat Wrote:  Of all the other possibilities, evolution just happened, for no good reason to cause the sensation of intercourse to be the single most pleasurable experience two people can share?
You do not understand how evolution works in theory or in practice, you prove the axiom "You either accept evolution or you don't understand evolution.".


(14-06-2016 11:49 AM)Phu Cat Wrote:  This is the one thing where it's pretty easy to realize that a Creator that wanted to insure the population of the earth did so by making sure it was so pleasurable that we would not pass up any reasonable opportunity to engage in it.
That's not a realization, it's an after the fact assertion. In this case, as in so many others, "God did it" is an after the fact explanation for a already known phenomena. You have no evidence for him, his intent, or his handiwork in it and thus your "realization" is just a nonsense gap filler for a subject you don't understand.

Your explanation presents a, to be perfectly blunt, very very fucking stupid or malicious god. " I'm God, and I'm going to design this creature in such a way that fucking is the most enjoyable thing ever. Then I'm going to people the whole of this earth with other people who enjoy it as much. I'm going to make them all compatible and that every single one of them can get this pleasure from every other one. Then I'm going to command them to reproduce. But only with ONE other person, if they fuck any other person than that ONE person I'm going to SET THEM ON FIRE FOR EVER AND EVER AND EVER!!!!! cause I'm God and that makes total sense to me."

Now lets look at some other problems with your example:
1.) You have falsely equated sex and reproduction as the same thing. They are not. Gay people can gain pleasure from sex with utterly no chance of reproduction. In fact reproduction as a whole kinda sucks for the woman. Child birth sure as shit a basket of fresh kittens.
2.) Speaking of gay people, if sex feels great cause god wants us to reproduce why does it feel good for gay people as well? Are you wrong or is god just an idiot who couldn't see that coming and design a system that doesn't cause that. Is that why he hates on gays so much in the Bible? Cause they outsmarted him?
3.) How about all the other things in the human body that were created by the same god who made this kick ass reproduction system that seems like they were built by a meth addled fucktard? Appendix? Hey it explodes and kills you for no fucking reason without warning! Wisdom teeth? Hope you like brutal dental pain and up until recently agonizing death! Eye balls? Hope you like being blind as shit 50% of the time because you can't see in the dark like many many other mammals!
4.) God also created an organ that's able to help us deal with the effects of Alcohol. Is it that way because god WANTS us all to be alcoholics? Must be!


I could go on but I won't. Frankly sir you need to either pick a topic of conversation in which you have some degree of knowledge or go and actually learn about evolution because as it stands no you don't understand it.

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14-06-2016, 05:57 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
Then they went onward towards Jericho, Jericho, Jerichoooo
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14-06-2016, 05:59 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(14-06-2016 11:49 AM)Phu Cat Wrote:  Isn't that about the most pleasurable sensation you know of?

Phu Cat[/size]

No. Surfing is more fun.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
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14-06-2016, 06:03 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(14-06-2016 05:52 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Loathe as I am to break open certain parts of the Bible...some more for that first bit on replying to the whole "certain cities be killed" deal:
1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ”

(Also ignore the fact that King Saul supposedly wiped out the Amalekites and then in 1 Samuel 15 and 1 Samuel 30 they reappear.)

Are you SURE you aren't an atheist?
Consider

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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14-06-2016, 06:06 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(13-06-2016 07:58 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  That's a ridiculous and unfair question. Atheism banks on the belief that there is not and cannot be a God. If that is proved to be empirically false, then the question is moot. Of course people would choose to live life again and then go to heaven as opposed to suffering for all eternity in hell.

or......live a life of sex, drugs, rock & roll and moral bankruptcy...then while lying on your death bed, accept jesus as your savior and voila! heaven...Rolleyes

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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14-06-2016, 06:19 PM
RE: Christian with a question....
(14-06-2016 11:49 AM)Phu Cat Wrote:  Mr. Bornagainpagan, I'm obvisously not as well studied as you as I've never read or heard of a story where God demands everyone in a certain city be killed except the comely young women who are then to be available for certain peoples pleasure. I can't imagine God doing such a thing, altho I can't quote every passage of the Bible. Could you possibly clarify that for me?

As far as my original question goes, it's interesting that as human that we can always find a way to justify whatever it is we want. You certainly have a right in this country to feel any way you wish and I hope that works out OK for you.

But consider this:I'm willing to bet a good many of you believe in evolution. I do too, to some extent. Lets take procreation as an example. Isn't that about the most pleasurable sensation you know of? If not, I'd sure like to know what is better? Did it get that way by evolution? Of all the other possibilities, from being not at all pleasurable, maybe even painful, to as fantastically pleasurable as it is, that it just turned out that way by dumb luck? You can't be serious! Of all the other possibilities, evolution just happened, for no good reason to cause the sensation of intercourse to be the single most pleasurable experience two people can share? This is the one thing where it's pretty easy to realize that a Creator that wanted to insure the population of the earth did so by making sure it was so pleasurable that we would not pass up any reasonable opportunity to engage in it.

Phu Cat

Rolleyes

Oh dear dear child...so much you have yet to learn. Before you go mentioning the xtian god, and making biblical implications, maybe you could start by reading the atheist go to book....the BIBLE. Hands down the best book ever fabricated for the creation of atheists...it just takes basic reading comprehension skills, and maybe a tad of knowledge about actual history, actual science, and a sprinkling of archaeological understanding.

Now because I pity your infantile knowledge of the fact of evolutionary science, here is just a crumb for you to digest....read.....learn...marinate on it for a moment...really savor it...then evolve.

Here is a small bit of information from my evolutionary classwork on the evolution of the sex organs...since, like most christians, you seem to be obsessed with the subject.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You get sexual reproduction even in unicellular organisms. Individual bacteria merge, exchange genetic material, and divide to produce new bacteria with different genetic makeup from either parent.

So the sex organs are just a multicellular organism's way of doing the same thing. The first multicellular organisms (like the slime molds) did sex the old-fashioned way: some of its cells would meet up with some cells of another member of its sex, fuse, and divide.

The next step after the primitive multicellular organisms is when cells begin to develop specialized functions. (This is where the old saw "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" comes in; the ancient organisms I'm talking about were similar to a human embryo where it starts to have "inside" cells and "outside" cells.) One of those specialized functions is gametes, special cells with just half of the genetic complement.

Nobody knows which organisms first developed gametes (this is all long, long before anything left fossils) but it's a relatively simple mutation that prevents polyploidy. In other words, you fuse gametes together and get one full genetic complement and you don't have to weed out duplicates or deal with an exponentially increasing genetic load.

Meiosis is such a simple mutation that some creatures had probably been producing gametes for a while before they figured out how to use them for sex. Probably one organism began producing gametes which fused with a somatic cell to reproduce. That saved its "father" a huge amount of work; it could produce twice as many offspring for the same energy. So that was selected for, and eventually everybody was producing gametes and fusing them to other gametes.

The idea of "male" and "female" organisms came even later than that, when gestation became long enough that one of the parents had to provide extra energy. One organism found that its offspring did better if it made its gametes with an extra blob of protein and sugar which the developing cells could eat. That was successful enough that it became the first female creature.

That evolutionary step probably happened more than once, in different kingdoms (plants, animals, yeasts), because having exactly two genders with one producing few slow gametes and the other producing many fast gametes is such a good idea.

Sexual organs came only long, long after that. In plants, the differing sexual organs didn't actually have to touch each other, so they evolved more or less in isolation as the wind or insects carried the gametes to meet each other.

In vertebrates, many species don't need compatible organs, either. Many fish just spray eggs into the water, and a male comes by later and sprays sperm among them. Birds have an all-purpose "cloaca", and transfer gametes in a somewhat messy fashion.

But the penis and vagina idea is good enough that it happened at least twice, once among the mammals and one among the insects. (Insect penises are unrelated to mammal penises, an example of convergent evolution.) In vertebrates, the penis is a modification of the cloaca: male instances of the species found that they could reproduce more effectively with a bulge in the cloaca to deposit sperm closer to the ovaries.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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