Christianity for busy thinking people
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
08-08-2016, 08:26 PM
RE: Christianity for busy thinking people
(08-08-2016 06:51 PM)pasadi97 Wrote:  Anyhow we must agree that macroevolution was not proven yet.

No, "we" don't have to agree with you at all.

Quote:Also in evolution NDE has no reason if evolution is true.

So what if it doesn't have a "reason"? Not everything has to have a reason, you know. NDEs appear to be a neurological side effect of the body reacting to profound trauma, and may or may not have evolved as a safety mechanism.

Quote:Also NDE is not brain activity.

Yes. It. Is. Don't bullshit the nice goddess who types Neurology reports for a living, because She will soooo get you for that. Angel

Quote:,,, people with make-believe "soul vision" imagine that they see soul departing body at death.

Fixed that for you. As there is no evidence for souls, they are imaginary until otherwise demonstrated.

Quote:In the end we can agree to disagree. But unfortunately you have to get things right because there is a stiff penalty if you get it wrong, Hell.

Then I choose Hell. I will not worship a god that would create such a place, and I am so sure that both hell and your god are fictional that I'm simply not going to worry about it.

Coffee break's over, Pasadi. Get back to destroying the Orthodox Church or I'll dock you half a day's pay. Big Grin
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Astreja's post
08-08-2016, 08:29 PM
RE: Christianity for busy thinking people
(08-08-2016 07:29 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Unfortunately you DO have to get things right so if you don't believe in Odin you're toast. He promised to rid the world of Ice Giants........you don't see any Ice Giants around now, do you? Proof that Odin is real!

All Hail Odin! Worship Slaves

Pabbi says "Þakka þér kærlega."
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-08-2016, 08:48 PM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2016 08:59 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Christianity for busy thinking people
(08-08-2016 06:51 PM)pasadi97 Wrote:  Anyhow we must agree that macroevolution was not proven yet. They tried to see what happens over millions of years of age by experimenting of flies that had a very small lifespan.

No, we "must" not agree at all. What you call macroevolution is conclusively demonstrated by DNA evidence (and several other lines of evidence which already demonstrated it-- but DNA scanning technology came along and could have thrown the whole theory out on its head, yet proved unequivocally what had already been theorized by other means... these are parallel lines of evidence which say the exact same thing), in that we can detect the sections of DNA handed down from generation to generation even after the lines diverge into different animals.

Now, I know you're programmed to say "but the DNA is similar because the animals are similar", since that's Hovind's position, but that gets the cart before the horse. I'm also talking about parts of the DNA that aren't coding for anything, just passing along mostly unchanged from generation to generation because there's no Natural Selection pressure acting on those non-gene sections. It's the exact same phenomenon we use to demonstrate paternity in courts of law, since lines of genetic "markers" will be passed along the same bloodline.

(Edit to Add: We also have markers of ancient viral infections that left a "scar" on the germline DNA, and were thus passed down, which we share with other hominids and apes to such a degree that the number of shared ones can also be used to build the "tree" of how the populations diverged.)

We also see these kinds of markers shared between (for instance) humans and chimpanzees, with exactly the amount of random mutation change we'd expect to see based on how long ago our lineages diverged. We also have commonly-inherited systems from more distant ancestors, systems that work fine and thus are not under much selection pressure, such as the genes for hemoglobin. There's no other rational explanation for why those systems would be shared between humans and other animals, to the exact degree of our similarity to that animal, if not for common descent. That *alone* proves "macro" evolution is really a thing... and it applies equally to every other thing on earth.

(08-08-2016 06:51 PM)pasadi97 Wrote:  They experimented with these flies simulating probably millions of years . They had many generation. They radiated them, warmed them and after so many generations do you think they obtained anythiong than flies? No they obtained flies. They've got more pairs of wings, smaller, larger so forth but they were flies.

"Probably" millions of years? Sounds like something you could check. So let's engage in a little basic math: We'll assume fruit flies have an approximately one-day life-cycle (generation span)... that means in one year you can make 365 generations. In ten years, you can make 3650 generations.

In order to do that experiment to produce "millions of years" of evolution [to simulate that many generations in other, longer-lived animals], you'd have to run the experiment for more than a century. Whomever it was that told you that this experiment disproves evolution doesn't understand a thing about it.

No scientist expects to get anything but more fruit flies out of these experiments. The only people who expect them to turn into a whole new type of creature in only 3650 generations are Creationists: that sort of insanely rapid evolution rate is Hovind's "Created Kinds" argument for why only a few types of animals had to fit in Noah's Ark. By saying that you think evolution should produce new types of animal in these experiments, you're showing that you simply do not have the first clue about evolution-- this is an observation, not an insult.

(08-08-2016 06:51 PM)pasadi97 Wrote:  Also in evolution NDE has no reason if evolution is true. Also NDE is not brain activity. People in NDE saw body from above, they saw what happened in three rooms distance, they saw what was on the roof and people with soul vision see soul departing body at death.

I'm not an expert on neurology, but I doubt that evolution actually produced the NDE... I suspect it's simply a by-product of other systems that work differently in normal situations but which "go haywire" when the brain is deprived of blood flow.

Lots of things in evolution are "co-opted" in this way, though, from systems which serve another purpose originally-- it's quite possible that the NDE chemical release which serves a normal function also serves to keep the brain working just a bit longer, when it would normally just shut down from lack of oxygen, and that this might serve to save the life of a hunter who was, say, gored by a boar, long enough for the blood to clot. That hunter lives to make more babies and pass along this favorable system. But that's a "just-so" story, and I don't see it being a strong enough likelihood to exert Natural Selection pressure on a population, so I suspect it's just a byproduct and not part of evolution.

(08-08-2016 06:51 PM)pasadi97 Wrote:  In the end we can agree to disagree. But unfortunately you have to get things right because there is a stiff penalty if you get it wrong, Hell.

That's funny! Would you please explain to my wife, who is a Sunday School teacher and also a geneticist with degrees in evolutionary biology, that she is going to hell? I'm sure it would amuse her.

I'm quite serious about what I asked you before, Pasadi. Why do Christians, such as evangelical Dr. Francis S. Collins (former head of the Human Genome Project, science adviser to two US Presidents, and current head of the chief publisher of evolutionary research, the US National Institutes of Health), not only believe in evolution but become some of the top researchers in the field of evolutionary biology?

Dr. Collins says the exact opposite of what you say. He wrote a book on why evolution strengthens his faith and makes him glad to discover the fingerprints of the creator left in the creation, in his book The Language of God.

Yet you keep referring to evolution as an atheism-vs-Christianity thing. Why is that?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
08-08-2016, 08:49 PM
RE: Christianity for busy thinking people
I see Astreja already answered about the NDEs, and said almost exactly what I said, while I was typing.

That's why she's a secular goddess. Smile

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes RocketSurgeon76's post
09-08-2016, 12:53 AM
RE: Christianity for busy thinking people
Oh, by the way, Pasadi, I looked it up... the per-generation time of the fruit flies you mention is nine-to-ten days under optimal conditions, not one, so divide my figures up there by ten. It would take ten years to get 365 generations, and a century to get 3650 generations. I just picked the shortest time I could reasonably assume, to give your argument the best possible "benefit of the doubt" before doing my calculations. I was off by an order of magnitude.

The reason they add heat (as you mentioned) in the experiments is because it's 10-12 days at room temperature, and can be twice as long under cooler temps (around 15 degrees C or 60 degrees F).

http://depts.washington.edu/cberglab/wor...uit-flies/

Strangely, my teams never worked with Drosophila in my university's genetics labs; our experiments weren't based on trying to rush evolution but on looking at particular sequences of genes (and the systems they govern), for which we used Caenorhabditis elegans (nematodes/roundworms). Most of my own work in genetics was in my major focus, on viral RNA/DNA, in particular the Hantavirus carried by rice rats in my home state. Others did work with flies, I think, but not while I was there.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes RocketSurgeon76's post
09-08-2016, 01:36 AM
RE: Christianity for busy thinking people
H
(08-08-2016 03:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(08-08-2016 03:14 PM)adey67 Wrote:  If its true I regret going there after the revolution to help them out in their orphanages in Fierbinti and Slobozia, I feel quite sick as a result too.

You helped out? That's good. He's just one idiot.

Very true, I'm just super surprised he has a PhD and yet is so ignorant about evolution
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-08-2016, 01:50 AM
RE: Christianity for busy thinking people
(09-08-2016 12:53 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  ...
Strangely, my teams never worked with Drosophila in my university's genetics labs;
...
Others did work with flies, I think, but not while I was there.

Doesn't matter... too late!

Forever now you will be associated with ... The Rocket Flies!





A +1 rep to whoever starts a creative thread (with at least 3 examples) of TTA members' theme tunes.

GO!

Big Grin

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes DLJ's post
09-08-2016, 02:33 AM
RE: Christianity for busy thinking people
(09-08-2016 01:36 AM)adey67 Wrote:  H
(08-08-2016 03:42 PM)morondog Wrote:  You helped out? That's good. He's just one idiot.

Very true, I'm just super surprised he has a PhD and yet is so ignorant about evolution

His orthodox-wiki ( Laughat ) page claims that he is doing a PhD. He's probably the author of the page. I wouldn't put too much faith in it.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-08-2016, 04:45 AM
RE: Christianity for busy thinking people
As Tracy Harris says about NDE's "dying brains why would you trust them ? "
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes adey67's post
09-08-2016, 05:01 AM
RE: Christianity for busy thinking people
I like rhubarb.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Banjo's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: