Christianity is a Secularist religion.
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12-07-2014, 11:12 AM (This post was last modified: 12-07-2014 11:54 AM by Deltabravo.)
Christianity is a Secularist religion.
I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is not theistic in the traditional sense of the word. It may be that the writer/s of the NT was/were deistic but they weren't, in my opinion, believers in Yahweh or God as a "superbeing".

The reason I say this is threefold. First, the central concept of Christianity is that god is the "logos" which is a gnostic concept. The logos, according to John is in the "beginning" and thus "before" god and is the same thing as god.

Secondly, it is possible to have a reason based morality as Kant has shown and the moral philosophy in the NT is reason based. In Matthew, Jesus says that for those who understand the workings of the "kingdom of heaven", parables are not necessary. That means that for those who know how to reason, they don't need his parables, whereas for those who can't reason, he needs to explain how reason works in a variety of situations to result in a "reasoned" moral principle. That is not someone saying, "I'm going to spout god's word and you should obey it because I am god's messenger".

Thirdly, where other religions rely on superstitions and rites, the NT makes it impossible to take specific instances or happenings and turn them into objects of veneration. Jesus says in Matthew that "this generation" will have no signs. He is saying that those who follow his moral philosophy won't receive any signs from a god, they will have to figure things out for themselves, using reason. The inconsistencies in the NT are deliberate and they are mutually exclusive as in his healing of a man with a withered arm, no sorry, dropsy, two completely opposite conditions and his admonitions to his disciples to go abroad and spread his message....no, sorry, tarry in Jerusalem. The NT deliberately gives opposing messages so that those who want to have a formalistic religion based on following dogma, can't actually pin down what it would be.

Judaism in it's own terms is a religion of a people who descend from Abraham who came from Ur of the Chaldees. This would make him an Aryan Celt and the Jews a Celtic people who originally worshipped Celtic gods, the sun, the stars and the Tao. It is derived from ancient fertility religions of the Celtic people. Who wrote it up in it's present form I will leave to Bucky Ball and Ralf Ellis to argue over.

Christianity is, therefore, an attempt to get rid of astrological, fertility based religion and replace it with one based on secularism and reason. It does so by grafting Gnosticism onto a plausibly "religious" story which is, in fact, when read properly, a farcical take down of mythological religion.
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12-07-2014, 11:16 AM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
Of course it is.

By definition.

Secularism is the principle of the separation of government institutions and persons mandated to represent the state from religious institutions and religious dignitaries.

All religions are part of this equation.

Next?

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12-07-2014, 11:59 AM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
Agreed then.

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12-07-2014, 12:14 PM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
(12-07-2014 11:12 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is not theistic in the traditional sense of the word. It may be that the writer/s of the NT was/were deistic but they weren't, in my opinion, believers in Yahweh or God as a "superbeing".

The reason I say this is threefold. First, the central concept of Christianity is that god is the "logos" which is a gnostic concept. The logos, according to John is in the "beginning" and thus "before" god and is the same thing as god.

Secondly, it is possible to have a reason based morality as Kant has shown and the moral philosophy in the NT is reason based. In Matthew, Jesus says that for those who understand the workings of the "kingdom of heaven", parables are not necessary. That means that for those who know how to reason, they don't need his parables, whereas for those who can't reason, he needs to explain how reason works in a variety of situations to result in a "reasoned" moral principle. That is not someone saying, "I'm going to spout god's word and you should obey it because I am god's messenger".

Thirdly, where other religions rely on superstitions and rites, the NT makes it impossible to take specific instances or happenings and turn them into objects of veneration. Jesus says in Matthew that "this generation" will have no signs. He is saying that those who follow his moral philosophy won't receive any signs from a god, they will have to figure things out for themselves, using reason. The inconsistencies in the NT are deliberate and they are mutually exclusive as in his healing of a man with a withered arm, no sorry, dropsy, two completely opposite conditions and his admonitions to his disciples to go abroad and spread his message....no, sorry, tarry in Jerusalem. The NT deliberately gives opposing messages so that those who want to have a formalistic religion based on following dogma, can't actually pin down what it would be.

Judaism in it's own terms is a religion of a people who descend from Abraham who came from Ur of the Chaldees. This would make him an Aryan Celt and the Jews a Celtic people who originally worshipped Celtic gods, the sun, the stars and the Tao. It is derived from ancient fertility religions of the Celtic people. Who wrote it up in it's present form I will leave to Bucky Ball and Ralf Ellis to argue over.

Christianity is, therefore, an attempt to get rid of astrological, fertility based religion and replace it with one based on secularism and reason. It does so by grafting Gnosticism onto a plausibly "religious" story which is, in fact, when read properly, a farcical take down of mythological religion.

I don't think that word means what you think it means. Consider

sec·u·lar ˈsekyələr/
adjective
  1. denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis. "secular buildings"
    synonyms: nonreligious, areligious, lay, temporal, worldly, earthly, profane; formallaic "secular music" antonyms: holy, religious
  2. Christian Church
    (of clergy) not subject to or bound by religious rule; not belonging to or living in a monastic or other order.
  3. Astronomy
    of or denoting slow changes in the motion of the sun or planets.
  4. Economics
    (of a fluctuation or trend) occurring or persisting over an indefinitely long period.
    "there is evidence that the slump is not cyclical but secular"
  5. occurring once every century or similarly long period (used especially in reference to celebratory games in ancient Rome).



And how anyone can call Christianity a 'reasoned religion' with a straight face is amazing. Something based on completely unreasonable assumptions, contradictory source material, and supernatural miracles is not 'reasoned' by any definition.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-07-2014, 12:49 PM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
Needs more Freemasons.

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12-07-2014, 01:08 PM (This post was last modified: 12-07-2014 06:31 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
(12-07-2014 11:12 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  The reason I say this is threefold. First, the central concept of Christianity is that god is the "logos" which is a gnostic concept. The logos, according to John is in the "beginning" and thus "before" god and is the same thing as god.

Wrong. There is no "central" concept and John did not reflect most of the communities. John was the intersection of what already was Christianity, and Greek Gnosticism. (See what happens when you actually LEARN som real history, instead of making stuff up ?). The communities were vastly different, as reflected in the many many other documents.

(12-07-2014 11:12 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Secondly, it is possible to have a reason based morality as Kant has shown and the moral philosophy in the NT is reason based. In Matthew, Jesus says that for those who understand the workings of the "kingdom of heaven", parables are not necessary. That means that for those who know how to reason, they don't need his parables, whereas for those who can't reason, he needs to explain how reason works in a variety of situations to result in a "reasoned" moral principle. That is not someone saying, "I'm going to spout god's word and you should obey it because I am god's messenger".

The fad at the time was to simplify the complicated OT law. The ethic of the NT reflects the historical reality of the time, "Do unto others ... etc". Early Christianity was an organic flow from Jewish Apocalypticism. It was about the ushering in of the end-times, not about morality.

(12-07-2014 11:12 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Thirdly, where other religions rely on superstitions and rites, the NT makes it impossible to take specific instances or happenings and turn them into objects of veneration. Jesus says in Matthew that "this generation" will have no signs. He is saying that those who follow his moral philosophy won't receive any signs from a god, they will have to figure things out for themselves, using reason.

He never said that. That's you interpretation, based on your opinions. Jesus was a JEW, and therfore spoke ALL the time about the Father Yahweh.

(12-07-2014 11:12 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Judaism in it's own terms is a religion of a people who descend from Abraham who came from Ur of the Chaldees. This would make him an Aryan Celt and the Jews a Celtic people who originally worshipped Celtic gods, the sun, the stars and the Tao.

You are fucking kidding me. Historians KNOW the Jews got their gods straight from the ancient Near East, and archaeology has proven that. Are you on drugs today ?

(12-07-2014 11:12 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  It is derived from ancient fertility religions of the Celtic people. Who wrote it up in it's present form I will leave to Bucky Ball and Ralf Ellis to argue over.

There is not a shred of evidence for that bullshit, and you have provided none, as usual.

(12-07-2014 11:12 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Christianity is, therefore, an attempt to get rid of astrological, fertility based religion and replace it with one based on secularism and reason. It does so by grafting Gnosticism onto a plausibly "religious" story which is, in fact, when read properly, a farcical take down of mythological religion.

Show me ONE real scholar that agrees with this crap.

You really should consider humor-fiction writing. You're hilarious.

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12-07-2014, 01:21 PM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
(12-07-2014 12:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 11:12 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is not theistic in the traditional sense of the word. It may be that the writer/s of the NT was/were deistic but they weren't, in my opinion, believers in Yahweh or God as a "superbeing".

The reason I say this is threefold. First, the central concept of Christianity is that god is the "logos" which is a gnostic concept. The logos, according to John is in the "beginning" and thus "before" god and is the same thing as god.

Secondly, it is possible to have a reason based morality as Kant has shown and the moral philosophy in the NT is reason based. In Matthew, Jesus says that for those who understand the workings of the "kingdom of heaven", parables are not necessary. That means that for those who know how to reason, they don't need his parables, whereas for those who can't reason, he needs to explain how reason works in a variety of situations to result in a "reasoned" moral principle. That is not someone saying, "I'm going to spout god's word and you should obey it because I am god's messenger".

Thirdly, where other religions rely on superstitions and rites, the NT makes it impossible to take specific instances or happenings and turn them into objects of veneration. Jesus says in Matthew that "this generation" will have no signs. He is saying that those who follow his moral philosophy won't receive any signs from a god, they will have to figure things out for themselves, using reason. The inconsistencies in the NT are deliberate and they are mutually exclusive as in his healing of a man with a withered arm, no sorry, dropsy, two completely opposite conditions and his admonitions to his disciples to go abroad and spread his message....no, sorry, tarry in Jerusalem. The NT deliberately gives opposing messages so that those who want to have a formalistic religion based on following dogma, can't actually pin down what it would be.

Judaism in it's own terms is a religion of a people who descend from Abraham who came from Ur of the Chaldees. This would make him an Aryan Celt and the Jews a Celtic people who originally worshipped Celtic gods, the sun, the stars and the Tao. It is derived from ancient fertility religions of the Celtic people. Who wrote it up in it's present form I will leave to Bucky Ball and Ralf Ellis to argue over.

Christianity is, therefore, an attempt to get rid of astrological, fertility based religion and replace it with one based on secularism and reason. It does so by grafting Gnosticism onto a plausibly "religious" story which is, in fact, when read properly, a farcical take down of mythological religion.

I don't think that word means what you think it means. Consider

sec·u·lar ˈsekyələr/
adjective
  1. denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis. "secular buildings"
    synonyms: nonreligious, areligious, lay, temporal, worldly, earthly, profane; formallaic "secular music" antonyms: holy, religious
  2. Christian Church
    (of clergy) not subject to or bound by religious rule; not belonging to or living in a monastic or other order.
  3. Astronomy
    of or denoting slow changes in the motion of the sun or planets.
  4. Economics
    (of a fluctuation or trend) occurring or persisting over an indefinitely long period.
    "there is evidence that the slump is not cyclical but secular"
  5. occurring once every century or similarly long period (used especially in reference to celebratory games in ancient Rome).



And how anyone can call Christianity a 'reasoned religion' with a straight face is amazing. Something based on completely unreasonable assumptions, contradictory source material, and supernatural miracles is not 'reasoned' by any definition.

When one is engaged in imaginary dot-connecting, anything means anything you chose to imagine it means. That's the way that works. Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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12-07-2014, 01:44 PM (This post was last modified: 12-07-2014 01:57 PM by Deltabravo.)
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
(12-07-2014 01:21 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 12:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't think that word means what you think it means. Consider

sec·u·lar ˈsekyələr/
adjective
  1. denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis. "secular buildings"
    synonyms: nonreligious, areligious, lay, temporal, worldly, earthly, profane; formallaic "secular music" antonyms: holy, religious
  2. Christian Church
    (of clergy) not subject to or bound by religious rule; not belonging to or living in a monastic or other order.
  3. Astronomy
    of or denoting slow changes in the motion of the sun or planets.
  4. Economics
    (of a fluctuation or trend) occurring or persisting over an indefinitely long period.
    "there is evidence that the slump is not cyclical but secular"
  5. occurring once every century or similarly long period (used especially in reference to celebratory games in ancient Rome).



And how anyone can call Christianity a 'reasoned religion' with a straight face is amazing. Something based on completely unreasonable assumptions, contradictory source material, and supernatural miracles is not 'reasoned' by any definition.

When one is engaged in imaginary dot-connecting, anything means anything you chose to imagine it means. That's the way that works. Weeping

George Holyoake's 1896 publication English Secularism defines secularism as:


Secularism is a code of duty pertaining to this life, founded on considerations purely human, and intended mainly for those who find theology indefinite or inadequate, unreliable or unbelievable. Its essential principles are three: (1) The improvement of this life by material means. (2) That science is the available Providence of man. (3) That it is good to do good. Whether there be other good or not, the good of the present life is good, and it is good to seek that good.

Holyoake held that secularism and secular ethics should take no interest at all in religious questions (as they were irrelevant), and was thus to be distinguished from strong freethought and atheism. In this he disagreed with Charles Bradlaugh, and the disagreement split the secularist movement between those who argued that anti-religious movements and activism was not necessary or desirable and those who argued that it was.

Secularism goes back to Epicureanism which was prevalent at the time of Julius Caesar. It was a belief in common sense or "reason" combined with "friendship". The Claudians were not Epicureans.

It is interesting that the religion which is closest geographically to the place where Ellis says Christianity arose is the Allawi faith of Syria which is ostensibly Muslim but celebrates some Christian festivals. Its god is a trinity of "the meaning", "the name" and "the gateway". It is highly secretive and some Muslims say it isn't Islamic at all. Some say it is a form of Gnosticism. It is related to Druze Islam which is found in Golan which is where Gamala is located.

Another reason I say this about Christianity is that the central "personal" goal of Christianity is not life in an after world inhabited by angels but "atonement". Atonement means being "at one". There are a number of different theories of atonement which have been put forward over the years, see Gustav Aulen's Christus Victor, but on a very simplistic level it is easy to see how it is about becoming "at one" with oneself by following a moral philosophy, which avoids conflict and its consequent anxiety, to lead one to a state of tranquillity.

The teaching of the NT are simply ways of acting in such a way as to avoid conflict and to achieve "at onement". Blessed are the meek, those who turn the other cheek, those who go the extra mile. These exhortations have nothing to do with the existence of a deity.
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12-07-2014, 02:58 PM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
(12-07-2014 01:44 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 01:21 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  When one is engaged in imaginary dot-connecting, anything means anything you chose to imagine it means. That's the way that works. Weeping

George Holyoake's 1896 publication English Secularism defines secularism as:


Secularism is a code of duty pertaining to this life, founded on considerations purely human, and intended mainly for those who find theology indefinite or inadequate, unreliable or unbelievable. Its essential principles are three: (1) The improvement of this life by material means. (2) That science is the available Providence of man. (3) That it is good to do good. Whether there be other good or not, the good of the present life is good, and it is good to seek that good.

Holyoake held that secularism and secular ethics should take no interest at all in religious questions (as they were irrelevant), and was thus to be distinguished from strong freethought and atheism. In this he disagreed with Charles Bradlaugh, and the disagreement split the secularist movement between those who argued that anti-religious movements and activism was not necessary or desirable and those who argued that it was.

Secularism goes back to Epicureanism which was prevalent at the time of Julius Caesar. It was a belief in common sense or "reason" combined with "friendship". The Claudians were not Epicureans.

It is interesting that the religion which is closest geographically to the place where Ellis says Christianity arose is the Allawi faith of Syria which is ostensibly Muslim but celebrates some Christian festivals. Its god is a trinity of "the meaning", "the name" and "the gateway". It is highly secretive and some Muslims say it isn't Islamic at all. Some say it is a form of Gnosticism. It is related to Druze Islam which is found in Golan which is where Gamala is located.

Another reason I say this about Christianity is that the central "personal" goal of Christianity is not life in an after world inhabited by angels but "atonement". Atonement means being "at one". There are a number of different theories of atonement which have been put forward over the years, see Gustav Aulen's Christus Victor, but on a very simplistic level it is easy to see how it is about becoming "at one" with oneself by following a moral philosophy, which avoids conflict and its consequent anxiety, to lead one to a state of tranquillity.

The teaching of the NT are simply ways of acting in such a way as to avoid conflict and to achieve "at onement". Blessed are the meek, those who turn the other cheek, those who go the extra mile. These exhortations have nothing to do with the existence of a deity.

a·tone·ment
əˈtōnmənt/
noun

  1. reparation for a wrong or injury.
    "she wanted to make atonement for her husband's behavior"
  2. (in religious contexts) reparation or expiation for sin.
    "an annual ceremony of confession and atonement for sin"
  3. Christian Theology
    the reconciliation of God and humankind through Jesus Christ.
    noun: Atonement; noun: the Atonement

The etymology is "at one" but that is not its meaning, and certainly not what Christians mean by it.
You confuse the two.

And to dig up an obsolete 19th-century definition for 'secular' is just silly.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-07-2014, 03:09 PM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
(12-07-2014 01:44 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 01:21 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  When one is engaged in imaginary dot-connecting, anything means anything you chose to imagine it means. That's the way that works. Weeping

George Holyoake's 1896 publication English Secularism defines secularism as:


Secularism is a code of duty pertaining to this life, founded on considerations purely human, and intended mainly for those who find theology indefinite or inadequate, unreliable or unbelievable. Its essential principles are three: (1) The improvement of this life by material means. (2) That science is the available Providence of man. (3) That it is good to do good. Whether there be other good or not, the good of the present life is good, and it is good to seek that good.

Holyoake held that secularism and secular ethics should take no interest at all in religious questions (as they were irrelevant), and was thus to be distinguished from strong freethought and atheism. In this he disagreed with Charles Bradlaugh, and the disagreement split the secularist movement between those who argued that anti-religious movements and activism was not necessary or desirable and those who argued that it was.

Secularism goes back to Epicureanism which was prevalent at the time of Julius Caesar. It was a belief in common sense or "reason" combined with "friendship". The Claudians were not Epicureans.

It is interesting that the religion which is closest geographically to the place where Ellis says Christianity arose is the Allawi faith of Syria which is ostensibly Muslim but celebrates some Christian festivals. Its god is a trinity of "the meaning", "the name" and "the gateway". It is highly secretive and some Muslims say it isn't Islamic at all. Some say it is a form of Gnosticism. It is related to Druze Islam which is found in Golan which is where Gamala is located.

Another reason I say this about Christianity is that the central "personal" goal of Christianity is not life in an after world inhabited by angels but "atonement". Atonement means being "at one". There are a number of different theories of atonement which have been put forward over the years, see Gustav Aulen's Christus Victor, but on a very simplistic level it is easy to see how it is about becoming "at one" with oneself by following a moral philosophy, which avoids conflict and its consequent anxiety, to lead one to a state of tranquillity.

The teaching of the NT are simply ways of acting in such a way as to avoid conflict and to achieve "at onement". Blessed are the meek, those who turn the other cheek, those who go the extra mile. These exhortations have nothing to do with the existence of a deity.

They may not be seen today to have to be. Unfortunately for you, there are mountains of evidence the early Christians connected it with their god.
You're committing the (common) fallacy of Presentism.
And we know precisely where Christianity arose, and why Ellis' theory is crap. This is so utterly idiotic "revisionism" it's beyond stupid.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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