Christianity is a Secularist religion.
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25-07-2014, 01:28 PM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
ok, I'll work less hard.

No it didn't. Read Atwill.
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25-07-2014, 01:30 PM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
(25-07-2014 01:28 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  ok, I'll work less hard.

No it didn't. Read Atwill.

LOL
You'll figure it out.
Rock on.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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25-07-2014, 01:33 PM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
Mithras
Born of a virgin
Came to earth as a human
Taught using parables
Healed sick
Taught love one another
12 disciples
Hung on a tree 3 days
Rose from the dead
Etc

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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25-07-2014, 02:10 PM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
(25-07-2014 01:33 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Mithras
Born of a virgin
Came to earth as a human
Taught using parables
Healed sick
Taught love one another
12 disciples
Hung on a tree 3 days
Rose from the dead
Etc

Yes, I know that. I am fine with the idea that Christianity is loaded with these recurring myths and legends, and miracles and other fabulous, wonderful stories that small children and imbeciles find believable.

I don't, however, think that the writers of the NT believed in this garbage or that they were just trying to re-create Mythraism by another name.

I don't want to keep going over the same position. I think it is important. Richard Dawkins felt it was sufficiently plausible that he supported Joe Atwill's conference in London last year by tweeting about it. If it is anywhere near the truth, it is highly significant and I have yet to read any rebuttal of his statistical anaylysis so until I do, I have to accept it as "scientifically proven" that the New Testament is a Roman construction by one or more persons and that throws a whole new light on the NT if you then read it "inter-textually", as one work, rather than four independently written gospels.

So, my view of Christianity is based on a "scientific" analysis of the text by someone who is a qualified "scientist" and I much happier with this approach to textual analysis than weighing all the competing theories of religion professors none of whom have the integrity to deal with Atwill's theory on the merits and prefer to engage in chat forum style diatribes.

Anyway, I've had enough. I think the only thing meaningful one can get out of contributing to this type of forum is to put ideas forward for others to read and ponder, and to get ideas off one's chest.

I live in the Near East and right now things are pretty hot. We have a situation with ISIS telling Christians in Erbil to get out of town, be taxed or be killed and when they leave town, they are stopped and robbed. Their property is then confiscated by ISIS.

This is what we are faced with these days. We get worked up about people like Assad and support his opponents and then we find ourselves supporting people like ISIS who are just the Taliban by a different name.

I have a lot of Muslim friends and all of them have asked me the same auestion, "Have you read the Koran?". I have and it is pure nonsense. It is incoherent gibberish and I suspect that Islam is at a stage in its evolution where most Muslims are told not to read the Koran and most have not.

I think we in the west have allowed ourselves to be lulled into a con game. We have out fine ideals of equality of people regardless of religion and belief. We think that everyone is entitled to vote and participate equally in politics. But what is the result. We have a billion people in the world in underprivileged countries, many of whom can't read and most who are under the influence of a religion which prevents them from reading their own religious texts. We elevate this religion to the same status as one which may, in fact, have been designed to influence people like this away from paganistic practices towards a reason based morality.

Are all religions to be treated the same because they are "religions"? Or are some of them "cults" which threaten followers with death if they try to leave the cult and threaten death to non-believers? Is there no protection against these sorts of religions?

What is so profound about Islam? Apart from the belief in god and Mohammed as his prophet, the only other "tenets" of the religion are its other "pillars": fasting, praying five times a day and making a visit to Mecca. Even killing people is "ok" if your co-religionists say it is "ok". It is a religion which has no moral compass at all.

That is why it is important to demystify these religions. Judaism is the story of the Keltoi. Christianity is pro-Romann propaganda. Islam is the manifesto of Arabian tribes who invaded the Christian Near East. That is why Atwill and Ellis are important. They demystify Christianity. Now I am waiting for someone to do the same or better with Islam.

Bowing
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25-07-2014, 02:45 PM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
Quote:Christianity is a Secularist religion.

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25-07-2014, 06:20 PM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
(25-07-2014 10:17 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(20-07-2014 01:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  The Oxford Dictionary of the English Language does not agree with you.

Atwill's ideas are not supported by any evidence, Ellis is a loon.

You can continue to try to define words to suit you, but it only takes you down the rabbit hole.


No, Chas, you are the one going down the rabbit hole when you quote a dictionary.

You seem unable to grasp the argument. If the NT is written by Hellenistic Jews, and both Paul and Jospephus are said by some to be Hellenistic Jews, then the NT is written by people who don't "believe" the supernatural aspects of the NT.

Here is someone else who has found parallels between the NT and Josephus: http://www.josephus.org/ntparallels.htm

Secularism is a concept which describes ideas held by philosophers going back to Epicurus who some say "founded one of the major philosophies of ancient Greece, helping to lay the intellectual foundations for modern science and for secular individualism".

I find it hard to take you seriously as an "atheist". I think you are a bible-belt born-again Christian who has decided to denigrate those who see value in debunking Jesus and the NT.

Convince me otherwise!

You're hilarious. That argument is about as convincing as Atwill's.

Had you followed this discussion from the beginning, you would have see my first response wherein I said it would be great if this theory was true but that I awaited evidence.

I'm still waiting. All that has been presented is a tortured argument that requires stretching the facts and leaps of faith.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-07-2014, 06:37 PM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
(25-07-2014 06:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-07-2014 10:17 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  No, Chas, you are the one going down the rabbit hole when you quote a dictionary.

You seem unable to grasp the argument. If the NT is written by Hellenistic Jews, and both Paul and Jospephus are said by some to be Hellenistic Jews, then the NT is written by people who don't "believe" the supernatural aspects of the NT.

Here is someone else who has found parallels between the NT and Josephus: http://www.josephus.org/ntparallels.htm

Secularism is a concept which describes ideas held by philosophers going back to Epicurus who some say "founded one of the major philosophies of ancient Greece, helping to lay the intellectual foundations for modern science and for secular individualism".

I find it hard to take you seriously as an "atheist". I think you are a bible-belt born-again Christian who has decided to denigrate those who see value in debunking Jesus and the NT.

Convince me otherwise!

You're hilarious. That argument is about as convincing as Atwill's.

Had you followed this discussion from the beginning, you would have see my first response wherein I said it would be great if this theory was true but that I awaited evidence.

I'm still waiting. All that has been presented is a tortured argument that requires stretching the facts and leaps of faith.

There is no evidence which is why at best it's just another theory.
*Shrug*

Mheh

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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26-07-2014, 12:47 AM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
(12-07-2014 12:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 11:12 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is not theistic in the traditional sense of the word. It may be that the writer/s of the NT was/were deistic but they weren't, in my opinion, believers in Yahweh or God as a "superbeing".

The reason I say this is threefold. First, the central concept of Christianity is that god is the "logos" which is a gnostic concept. The logos, according to John is in the "beginning" and thus "before" god and is the same thing as god.

Secondly, it is possible to have a reason based morality as Kant has shown and the moral philosophy in the NT is reason based. In Matthew, Jesus says that for those who understand the workings of the "kingdom of heaven", parables are not necessary. That means that for those who know how to reason, they don't need his parables, whereas for those who can't reason, he needs to explain how reason works in a variety of situations to result in a "reasoned" moral principle. That is not someone saying, "I'm going to spout god's word and you should obey it because I am god's messenger".

Thirdly, where other religions rely on superstitions and rites, the NT makes it impossible to take specific instances or happenings and turn them into objects of veneration. Jesus says in Matthew that "this generation" will have no signs. He is saying that those who follow his moral philosophy won't receive any signs from a god, they will have to figure things out for themselves, using reason. The inconsistencies in the NT are deliberate and they are mutually exclusive as in his healing of a man with a withered arm, no sorry, dropsy, two completely opposite conditions and his admonitions to his disciples to go abroad and spread his message....no, sorry, tarry in Jerusalem. The NT deliberately gives opposing messages so that those who want to have a formalistic religion based on following dogma, can't actually pin down what it would be.

Judaism in it's own terms is a religion of a people who descend from Abraham who came from Ur of the Chaldees. This would make him an Aryan Celt and the Jews a Celtic people who originally worshipped Celtic gods, the sun, the stars and the Tao. It is derived from ancient fertility religions of the Celtic people. Who wrote it up in it's present form I will leave to Bucky Ball and Ralf Ellis to argue over.

Christianity is, therefore, an attempt to get rid of astrological, fertility based religion and replace it with one based on secularism and reason. It does so by grafting Gnosticism onto a plausibly "religious" story which is, in fact, when read properly, a farcical take down of mythological religion.

I don't think that word means what you think it means. Consider

sec·u·lar ˈsekyələr/
adjective
  1. denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis. "secular buildings"
    synonyms: nonreligious, areligious, lay, temporal, worldly, earthly, profane; formallaic "secular music" antonyms: holy, religious
  2. Christian Church
    (of clergy) not subject to or bound by religious rule; not belonging to or living in a monastic or other order.
  3. Astronomy
    of or denoting slow changes in the motion of the sun or planets.
  4. Economics
    (of a fluctuation or trend) occurring or persisting over an indefinitely long period.
    "there is evidence that the slump is not cyclical but secular"
  5. occurring once every century or similarly long period (used especially in reference to celebratory games in ancient Rome).



And how anyone can call Christianity a 'reasoned religion' with a straight face is amazing. Something based on completely unreasonable assumptions, contradictory source material, and supernatural miracles is not 'reasoned' by any definition.


Gee Chas, I thought for a minute that I must have misread something but looking at your first response, where you say you agreed that it would be nice if were true but, nope, not there.

I have to say, it would be nice if it were true that you said that. It would show that you were able to at least follow the argument I am putting forward. I wouldn't expect you to agree with it because that would require that you first read the books on which it is based.

Oh, yeah, like the other one by David Donnini who has come to the same conclusion on his own, that Jesus is Jesus of Gamala. http://www.macrolibrarsi.it/libri/__nuov...u_gesu.php

Here are some Google translations of the Italian comments on his book: Description of New hypotheses on Jesus
This historical Jesus will be to many a cultural event grammarian. The author, using documents and research very reliable, allows you to enter your figure (or figures) that we conisciuto as Jesus Christ digs between the original texts, compare, investigate and discover countless contradictions and inconsistencies. When and where he lived for Jesus Christ? Who was (or were) really: a religious leader or a successor to David who claimed the kingdom to Israel? And the apostles, followers of the Son of God or brothers of the man who led the revolt against the Romans. A fascinating historical revelation that calls into question some of the assumptions of our own culture, which made Christianity and perspectives unthinkable before.
Your reviews on "New hypothesis on Jesus"
Share your thoughts! Write a review.

mark

I shared so much "new hypotheses about Jesus by having written a novel titled" broken cross "novel that distorts all the truths of the church today, where I used the truths told by my donnini and fancendole and those who have had the good fortune to read my novel (unpublished). conclude by saying that donnini made ​​it perfectly the idea that even then Rome and censorship has deeply compromised the truth so simple to understand if you explain the magical pen of prof. donnini. thanks

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Purchased on Macrolibrarsi

Paul

I happened by chance on the books of David Donnini, and I could not help but buy all of his books. It 'a writer fascinating, not only for those topics that is (and of course that interest me, as a layman), but also on his way to tell and explain, for clarity and for the pleasure of the narrative. I gave her books to my friends can appreciate them, and the consensus was unanimous. "New hypotheses on Jesus" is a text that opens the mind of one who has been educated in the Catholic religion and that, growing over the years, could not avoid asking questions, leading often to atheism in the absence of answers. I hope to soon be able to read a book on the "Gospel of Judas". Alfonso Paul Massari. Rome

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Fabio

If it is true that "the truth makes you free" I found this book a fundamental step to try to understand in a different way the life of the Master Jesus Written in a pleasing way and with an approach to reading that I would call almost scientific, recommend it to all people who, like me, have had some doubts ......

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Antonio

A milestone in the history of Christianity, the real one, not that imaginative Messori etc.. It 'a text that should be introduced in schools. Among other things, the author has a pleasant style and brilliant.

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Joseph

Essay extraordinary and shocking, written with objectivity and with a strictly scientific approach. I consider, along with "Christ, a historical event from riscopire" by the same author, one of the most important books ever.

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Francis

Written in a "professional", nothing senzazionalismi, scientific. True nonfiction book on the subject. I would recommend it as a text for courses in religious sciences
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26-07-2014, 01:09 AM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
(25-07-2014 06:37 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(25-07-2014 06:20 PM)Chas Wrote:  You're hilarious. That argument is about as convincing as Atwill's.

Had you followed this discussion from the beginning, you would have see my first response wherein I said it would be great if this theory was true but that I awaited evidence.

I'm still waiting. All that has been presented is a tortured argument that requires stretching the facts and leaps of faith.

There is no evidence which is why at best it's just another theory.
*Shrug*

Mheh

The evidence is in the books which you refuse to read.
"Shrug"
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26-07-2014, 07:19 AM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
(26-07-2014 12:47 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Gee Chas, I thought for a minute that I must have misread something but looking at your first response, where you say you agreed that it would be nice if were true but, nope, not there.

I have to say, it would be nice if it were true that you said that. It would show that you were able to at least follow the argument I am putting forward. I wouldn't expect you to agree with it because that would require that you first read the books on which it is based.

This isn't the first or only thread on this subject. My response was in the thread that first introduced us to Atwill's ideas.

And the rest of your post is just more of the same arguments without evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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