Christianity is a Secularist religion.
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26-07-2014, 07:34 AM
Re: RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
(26-07-2014 01:09 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(25-07-2014 06:37 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  There is no evidence which is why at best it's just another theory.
*Shrug*

Mheh

The evidence is in the books which you refuse to read.
"Shrug"

Says Christians as well... But eh, why care. You're saying something brought up here not uncommonly, but definitely in an immediately complex and childish attention grabbing way.

These ideas and evidenced have been looked over by many here and talked up at least somewhat. The problem again is accepting something when it required leaps of judgment where there is actual uncertainty.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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26-07-2014, 07:38 AM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
(26-07-2014 01:09 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(25-07-2014 06:37 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  There is no evidence which is why at best it's just another theory.
*Shrug*

Mheh

The evidence is in the books which you refuse to read.
"Shrug"

Sure it is, bud.

From Atwill, a crank, and Ellis, a raving lunatic.

Good luck with that.

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26-07-2014, 09:41 AM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
(26-07-2014 01:09 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(25-07-2014 06:37 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  There is no evidence which is why at best it's just another theory.
*Shrug*
Yt?
Mheh

The evidence is in the books which you refuse to read.
"Shrug"

What book? The NT? I've read it.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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26-07-2014, 09:50 AM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
(25-07-2014 02:10 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(25-07-2014 01:33 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Mithras
Born of a virgin
Came to earth as a human
Taught using parables
Healed sick
Taught love one another
12 disciples
Hung on a tree 3 days
Rose from the dead
Etc

Yes, I know that. I am fine with the idea that Christianity is loaded with these recurring myths and legends, and miracles and other fabulous, wonderful stories that small children and imbeciles find believable.

I don't, however, think that the writers of the NT believed in this garbage or that they were just trying to re-create Mythraism by another name.

I don't want to keep going over the same position. I think it is important. Richard Dawkins felt it was sufficiently plausible that he supported Joe Atwill's conference in London last year by tweeting about it. If it is anywhere near the truth, it is highly significant and I have yet to read any rebuttal of his statistical anaylysis so until I do, I have to accept it as "scientifically proven" that the New Testament is a Roman construction by one or more persons and that throws a whole new light on the NT if you then read it "inter-textually", as one work, rather than four independently written gospels.

So, my view of Christianity is based on a "scientific" analysis of the text by someone who is a qualified "scientist" and I much happier with this approach to textual analysis than weighing all the competing theories of religion professors none of whom have the integrity to deal with Atwill's theory on the merits and prefer to engage in chat forum style diatribes.

Anyway, I've had enough. I think the only thing meaningful one can get out of contributing to this type of forum is to put ideas forward for others to read and ponder, and to get ideas off one's chest.

I live in the Near East and right now things are pretty hot. We have a situation with ISIS telling Christians in Erbil to get out of town, be taxed or be killed and when they leave town, they are stopped and robbed. Their property is then confiscated by ISIS.

This is what we are faced with these days. We get worked up about people like Assad and support his opponents and then we find ourselves supporting people like ISIS who are just the Taliban by a different name.

I have a lot of Muslim friends and all of them have asked me the same auestion, "Have you read the Koran?". I have and it is pure nonsense. It is incoherent gibberish and I suspect that Islam is at a stage in its evolution where most Muslims are told not to read the Koran and most have not.

I think we in the west have allowed ourselves to be lulled into a con game. We have out fine ideals of equality of people regardless of religion and belief. We think that everyone is entitled to vote and participate equally in politics. But what is the result. We have a billion people in the world in underprivileged countries, many of whom can't read and most who are under the influence of a religion which prevents them from reading their own religious texts. We elevate this religion to the same status as one which may, in fact, have been designed to influence people like this away from paganistic practices towards a reason based morality.

Are all religions to be treated the same because they are "religions"? Or are some of them "cults" which threaten followers with death if they try to leave the cult and threaten death to non-believers? Is there no protection against these sorts of religions?

What is so profound about Islam? Apart from the belief in god and Mohammed as his prophet, the only other "tenets" of the religion are its other "pillars": fasting, praying five times a day and making a visit to Mecca. Even killing people is "ok" if your co-religionists say it is "ok". It is a religion which has no moral compass at all.

That is why it is important to demystify these religions. Judaism is the story of the Keltoi. Christianity is pro-Romann propaganda. Islam is the manifesto of Arabian tribes who invaded the Christian Near East. That is why Atwill and Ellis are important. They demystify Christianity. Now I am waiting for someone to do the same or better with Islam.

Bowing

I get that you wish to demystify religion. I'm just not sure why you're doing it here.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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26-07-2014, 12:21 PM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
I ended up here because I came across Ralph Ellis on another site and when I googled him, I found that he had posted here. By the time I joined up and started posting, he had been kicked off the forum. I was interested in his ideas because, having read Atwill, I wondered if anyone had put their minds to who Jesus was, if Atwill was right and he was based on a figure in the time of the Jewish revolt. Ellis shows some similarities between the Jesus story and Izates/Jesus of Gamala and the history he has dug up is quite interesting. It's not as though he believes in spacemen. He is interested in whether there is a different historical theory arising out of the history of the Jewish revolt.

Why does anyone want to demystify religion? Why are there people here who get worked about Atwill and Ellis? I find that very strange. It's just someone setting out some ideas. Why call them names? I just find that incredibly childish and silly.

It took a couple of months to get someone to hand deliver a copy of Ellis' book to me because I live in a military zone with no postal delivery, phones, sewers etc. During that time I just got into various debates with people here who have this reaction to these writers. I then read Ellis. I don't agree with his views entirely but he puts forward and interesting proposition, as does Atwill and just saying that there isn't any evidence of what he says doesn't wash at all when you read a book of 500 pages which remorselessly hammers down every argument from every source imaginable.


In the end, I found his book exhausting because each argument was so thoroughly and meticulously argued. Yes, it involves "interpretations", many of which seem bizarre at first, and then you wade through a chapter of Ellis examining a particular argument and then another chapter and another...and you just can't get around it. He looks at the issue from every angle.

Then there is David Donnini who also meticulously researched the issue and came to the same conclusion, that Jesus is Jesus of Gamala, a leader of the Jewish Revolt. Atwill doesn't go that far and I think he believes Jesus was Eleazar of Galilee, but then that is a question of whether you want to say that "Jesus" was the teacher of Queen Helena, ie., a rabbi, or the revolutionary. It's like saying that Harry Potter may be based on JK Rowlings next door neigbhour's kid or her own nephew. Whatever way you want to look at it, the result is that on this view, Jesus is just a person, a Nazarene, was not born of a virgin and wasn't the son of god or crucified. I can't understand why that sort of theory or investigation causes some people to react in such an abusive way particularly when they haven't read any of these works.

As for why I am here. Well, maybe it isn't for me. I am more of a "rational secularist" and I don't define myself in terms of what I don't believe in. The experience is worthwhile, though. I think forums like this make one think. I know I say a lot of things which are theory or just speculation and I get a lot of flack. I suppose most of it is just people having a laugh but it makes you think about what you are saying, what you believe. Maybe it's my own horse hair shirt. Who knows.

I am semi retired and anguished over religious issues in my youth to the point I left my home town and went to a big university for my doctorate, where people didn't go on and on about Christianity.

We now live in an era of political correctness where we have women protesting that they should be allowed to wear headscarves and men wanting to support these Islamic movements, but it seems they haven't even read the Koran. We in he west have inherited a tradition of tolerance out of two thousand years and more of persecution of free thinkers and now we have to give equal status to religions which indoctrinate their followers and threaten non-believers and those who want to leave the religion.

Whether posting here has any effect on this, I doubt, but I suppose it is my way of venting my spleen the same way others do.

It's an odd thing. One the one hand, I live in a Muslim society and the people are so kind and friendly, and mainly secular. I never hear anyone preaching to anyone. But then, I realize that they don't have any idea of what their own religion is about and I want to tell them to read the Koran, as I have, and see what a lot of nonsense it was. I told a friend it had a chapter on "The Ant" and another about "Iron" and he had no idea and thought it was funny. This is a university educated Muslim and he hasn't read the Koran. It's extraordianary. We in the west tend to think of Islamic societies as monolithic and the religion as "fervent" and "radical". What it is is a religion of indoctrination where all people know about the religion is what they are told and so they seem to have to resort to outwardly observable rituals because they have nothing else to hang onto and none of the Muslims I come into contact seem that fussed about the religion at all or do much which shows that they are even religious. Their ideas are simple. Islam for most of them/all of them seems to be about observing holidays and fasts and...frankly...not much else, as far as I can make out. It's very odd because the TV is full of images of the violent side of this religion which is unfortunate. What we in the west need to figure out is who the violent ones are and how to undermine their message, which is very much a tiny minority message, but we are hamstrung because we are so obsessed with showing how tolerant we are of religious difference. All religions aren't the same, though. Some are medieval and haven't experienced a "reformation" and some are just cults and should be exposed as such, or at least, the interpretations of them by some sects. I think, hope, that in this day of internet communication, it will be much easier for free thinkers to expose some religions and sects as violent cults which should not be given the protection of charters of rights and freedoms, anymore than Charles Manson's cult should have been protected.

These people don't respect freedom of thought: http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/mid...-Iraq.html

They don't deserve any quarter in our dealings with them, but if we were to take action against them, it would be seen as western anti-Islamism when it would and should be seen as a recognition that these people are murderers and thugs.
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26-07-2014, 12:56 PM
RE: Christianity is a Secularist religion.
(26-07-2014 12:21 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I ended up here because I came across Ralph Ellis on another site and when I googled him, I found that he had posted here. By the time I joined up and started posting, he had been kicked off the forum.

No, he hadn't. He is still a member.

Quote:
I was interested in his ideas because, having read Atwill, I wondered if anyone had put their minds to who Jesus was, if Atwill was right and he was based on a figure in the time of the Jewish revolt. Ellis shows some similarities between the Jesus story and Izates/Jesus of Gamala and the history he has dug up is quite interesting. It's not as though he believes in spacemen. He is interested in whether there is a different historical theory arising out of the history of the Jewish revolt.

Why does anyone want to demystify religion? Why are there people here who get worked about Atwill and Ellis? I find that very strange. It's just someone setting out some ideas. Why call them names? I just find that incredibly childish and silly.

We don't like pseudohistory any more than we like pseudoscience. It has been shown that Ellis is a nut job. Links were provided.

Quote:It took a couple of months to get someone to hand deliver a copy of Ellis' book to me because I live in a military zone with no postal delivery, phones, sewers etc. During that time I just got into various debates with people here who have this reaction to these writers. I then read Ellis. I don't agree with his views entirely but he puts forward and interesting proposition, as does Atwill and just saying that there isn't any evidence of what he says doesn't wash at all when you read a book of 500 pages which remorselessly hammers down every argument from every source imaginable.

That's part of the problem: 'every source imaginable'. Mostly it's fantasy.
Quote:In the end, I found his book exhausting because each argument was so thoroughly and meticulously argued. Yes, it involves "interpretations", many of which seem bizarre at first, and then you wade through a chapter of Ellis examining a particular argument and then another chapter and another...and you just can't get around it. He looks at the issue from every angle.

No, he looks at issues with obvious confirmation bias.

Quote:Then there is David Donnini who also meticulously researched the issue and came to the same conclusion, that Jesus is Jesus of Gamala, a leader of the Jewish Revolt. Atwill doesn't go that far and I think he believes Jesus was Eleazar of Galilee, but then that is a question of whether you want to say that "Jesus" was the teacher of Queen Helena, ie., a rabbi, or the revolutionary. It's like saying that Harry Potter may be based on JK Rowlings next door neigbhour's kid or her own nephew. Whatever way you want to look at it, the result is that on this view, Jesus is just a person, a Nazarene, was not born of a virgin and wasn't the son of god or crucified. I can't understand why that sort of theory or investigation causes some people to react in such an abusive way particularly when they haven't read any of these works.

Are you intentionally misunderstanding what is said to you? It is not the theory, it is the shoddy scholarship and fantastic arguments, the tissue of suppositions and imagined connections.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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