Christianity is false and immoral. (Hitchens)
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02-02-2011, 06:19 PM
RE: Christianity is false and immoral. (Hitchens)
"Do you believe Jesus is the son of God? Do you believe he died for our sins? If so, it seems to me that you have to believe in Original Sin. If not, why call yourself Christian? Did you ask Jesus to die for you? Were you there? These are the things Hitchens has taken issue with."

Nope, I think he was a dude who believed he was a dude pretending to be another dude. Ben Affleck is a shitty actor by the way. But that doesn't change the fact that I believe in the values he espouses. Love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek etc etc. I believe in following many of the things he preached. Original Sin, could not care less, that is some naked people runnin around eating produce, has no effect on my life. That is one of the parts I don't follow.

"He is in a debate, and yes, is purposely trying to evoke a response and trying to get people to think about their position. Your point?"

Yes but he is doing it in a way that results in hostility towards himself and his position. Now if that is his objective than mission accomplished USS Abraham Lincoln style. Instead of building support he is further alienating Christians from Atheists. Now if this is his objective bravo but I thought that we were trying to work on getting along and understanding each other. If that is not the case than please let me know. Yes there are a proportion of the christian population who won't respect their views but he is not just alienating them he is attempting to alienate all Christians.

"Could you demonstrate please how exactly he is illustrating the minority position."

Everyone knows that what is portrayed in the media is usually the extreme, how often is the moderate opinion portrayed? He is applying everything he was saying to all Christians instead of the extremes that we are typically exposed to. He is arguing against Mike Huckabee but insulting Joe the Plumber.

"Exactly, because people make things up to fit their whims and feelings and motivations as they go. More evidence that religion conforms to fit society instead of the other way around. I understand this may not be your position, but it is the position of the majority of Christians that I am in contact with."

Right as I understand people below the Maison Dixon line have stronger views on religion. You are ascribing the views in your community to the rest of the nation, no the rest of the world. How would you feel if everyone said that all atheists have the same views on everything? You are taking away peoples individuality. What do you know about how Quakers, other than delicious oatmeal? Or Episcopal? How do they compare to mormons, seventh day adventists, or baptists? Are you saying that their practices are the same?

"Also, why is there no single united Christian doctrine? Doesn't it come from a single being?"

Does Samuel L Jackson starring in a movie automatically mean some one is going to get yelled at? Well actually it does HAVENT YOU SEEN HIS MOVIES.
Does a stem cell automatically turn into a fixed thing or does it change into many different things that started from the same base.

Judaism, Christianity, and Muslim all started with a similar base but have since branched out and become their own off shots that will look vastly different from each other.

On a more serious note smart sharks are scary.

"My point was that you went straight to the "would you tell a 3 year old where babies come from" as if there should be some secrecy around the facts. By age appropriateness I meant telling them in a way they could understand."

But that is the thing a three year won't understand. You are still withholding information. You make it an excuse to not share information with your children because "they would not understand" Yes I agree that there are somethings that children should not be exposed to but saying that you don't lie to children at all is one of those absolutes that I highly doubt. It is one of those of those things that sounds bad when said but in reality doesn't mean anything. Just like

Mmm bop, ba duba dop
Ba du bop, ba duba dop
Ba du bop, ba duba dop
Ba du


"At the point when you're saying something that is not true."

So if I said that I like tacos and burritos which is true. I omit the part about having to eat it in front of starving orphans to enjoy. Is that okay, I didn't lie to him but left out a crucial part of the equation. So the poor boy bring me a taco and i don't eat it, now he is a sad panda

[quote='creationistpidyn' pid='18682' dateline='1296671581']I know for sure I am not ashamed of my body or nature, heck I take care of it at least 2-3 times a day. [/quote]

And you do realize that according to the Bible, which as you stated is our guide to being a good person, Jesus states that you have committed adultery? (provided that you thought of someone else while you were... taking care of things)

Does everything have to be about sex. I simply try to take care of myself, and be greatful and not abuse the body that I have been gifted with. Maintain cleanliness, physical fitness and food intake. That is at least 3 different ways I focus on taking care of my body.

Now you know and knowing is half the battle.

"I never said my way was best, but I would be willing to say that truth is ultimately better than deception."

so you have never lied to anyone? Following your above statement then you would have no reason to hide anything right? Do you proudly declare to everyone in your neighborhood that you are an Atheist, do you believe that all homosexuals, even in a dangerous situation should let people know if it comes up? Has your wife never looked fat in that dress?

"Sounds like you do a good job of cherry picking which parts of the Bible you want to believe and which parts you don't. "

No we just focused on specific parts that we felt were more important. Would you rather we focused on all the parts that I believe everyone can agree is outdated? If so I could be at the quarry in about 10 minutes and my ex-girlfriends house in 15

[quote='creationistpidyn' pid='18682' dateline='1296671581']Eternal damnation did not, nor does it really seem like a fear to me. It is only something to fear if you are a bad person. [/quote]
Au contraire, it is supposedly something to fear if you don't follow Jesus. Belief is the most important thing, and non-belief the only unforgivable sin. Being a good or bad person has nothing to do with it.

So if I stab someone and believe in god I am good? Sweet where is my stabbing knife. Let me know when you find someone who truly believes that, I will invest in some nice white tight jackets. I can't bring up the strongest example of this because it is the internet auto lose button next to "shut up" and "yea well your mom". But there are many people who would consider themselves good Christians who following modern morality would not be forgiven.

"So, how do you know which parts of the Bible are true and which are not?"

the ones that support my opinion duh. I mean if I were to take specific points that supported my views, ignoring those that did not strengthen them I would be a terrible person. I mean to take things out of context just to make a point would be horrible way to try and convince someone that your way is right. Can we not agree?

"With the exception of Jesus' parables, please show what parts of the Bible would indicate that it's all just stories. The Bible presents itself as fact, and history, and accurate."

It is a book, made out of paper with ink smears that form the shapes we call words. I have yet to see a bible take the podium, now I have seen people carrying this bundle of words presenting them as fact, history, and accurate. But then again when the bible starts talking to me, I will call up my boyz and make sure they can hear it too. If that checks out then I will take it as god's confirmation. Until then I will assume that it is people arguing this position not the bible.

"False. The Bible condones slavery, genocide, infanticide, and a host of other completely immoral doctrines."

Once again, condoning in the context of the time it took place in. Already made this point many times. As I recall modern Christianity for the most part has come out completely against these practices. going so far as to condemn them.

"Of course they don't, but their Bible does. That's the point - most people gloss over the bad stuff in the Bible because secular morals have risen above it. Yet they continue to espouse the goodness of the Bible and the goodness of Christianity. Why?"

Because once you are willing to look past the horrible things in the past you will see that most people are trying to lead good lives with it as a guide. What I don't understand is why you are clinging to the past so vehemently when it has no bearing on the modern Christians typical actions. This is like a young person accusing their partners of cheating because their parent got cheated on. Using the past against the present.

"But isn't the Old Testament God the same being as Jesus? So you're saying God has no bearing on our lives, no directions to give us? Then why should we worship him? Also, the Bible seems to say we should be following God."

No they are completely different, he went to rehab, got in a anger management program and changed his ways. I make no reference to saying god has no bearing on our lives, I am saying that he is simply allowing us to exercise our free will.

"If he has a plan, it's a pretty crappy one.'

"No plan survives first contact with the enemy, or a crave case. Seriously any plans you had for the day are shot."

"Prove it."

Well the human life span usually does not reach the centennial mark, so most likely people are not thinking in terms of centuries, thus I limit them to decades. The premise for god implies that he is immortal, thus it follows that any plan of his could span milennia.

"True, and lots of people cherry pick their beliefs and parts of their holy books to suit their own whims and thoughts, as opposed to actually trying to find out the objective truth behind them."

We are analyzing where they came from the context they take place in. I try to seek the understanding for why this position is posted. Why did they make some of these proclamations. In the context of the time period many of them make sense, such as shellfish and pork combined with hygiene and safety.

[quote='TheSixthGlass']"He's British, hence the British accent. I wouldn't categorize it as a "touch" any more than my southern accent is a "touch.""

"Also, am I missing a pop culture reference somehow - did you just say "screw you" to me? Or was that a quote? If not a quote, now who's being hostile? "

Have you never seen the original transformers movie? Optimus Prime died for hot rods sins. and low did he rise from the grave in the final season, to smite the enemies of robot kind and save us all from the retardedness that was rodimus prime(hot rod). take that jud nelson

"I occurs to me that while I responded to you, nearly point for point, that we're probably going to run in circles until you state just what it is you believe and why. The fact is, even if it's not the "majority" position - many many people believe much of these things that you say you don't."

Let me be frank, been at this for awhile and I am done.

I could not give a monkeys orange peel about what you believe, or believe about my opinions. What I do care about is someone judging the entire character of an individual on one aspect of their personality. He spoke as if all Christians were retarded(not mentally handicapped, there is a difference) and that arrogance and popus self righteousness really sticks in my grannies girdle. I would argue the complete opposite direction on a christian forum. It is not about the facts for me it is about the presentation of information and the personality involved in the presentation of that information
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02-02-2011, 06:51 PM
RE: Christianity is false and immoral. (Hitchens)
(02-02-2011 06:19 PM)creationistpidyn Wrote:  Let me be frank, been at this for awhile and I am done.

I could not give a monkeys orange peel about what you believe, or believe about my opinions.
Not to be rude, but if that's the case, why are you here? You're on a discussion forum.

Our brains deceive us on a regular basis, so we have to find ways to fight back.
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03-02-2011, 12:16 AM
RE: Christianity is false and immoral. (Hitchens)
I was here to have a discussion, however enough of the points I was trying to make were either ignored or taken in a completely unrelated direction. The final nail in my interest coffin was when you simply refused to acknowledge that the people who do not share the image of the Evil christian whom you claim to be surrounded by even make up enough of the pool to be given some level of recognition. You would rather continue to talk about the evils of Christianity because it allows you to maintain the image you have in your mind. I am not telling you that your views are wrong I fully support your decision to be a Athiest however what I can't support is your blatant labeling of good people as evil by association. Since you have said that you are not going to change then there is really no point to me continuing the conversation is there? unless someone else would like to chime in.
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03-02-2011, 03:03 AM
RE: Christianity is false and immoral. (Hitchens)
(03-02-2011 12:16 AM)creationistpidyn Wrote:  Since you have said that you are not going to change then there is really no point to me continuing the conversation is there?

You came here to change us? You need a lot of proof and evidence to accomplish that. So far you have shown absolute ZERO amount of either. You also ignored lot of evidence and proof that people have presented to you, just like a bunch of other christians before you did.

What are you missing from your life that you need to fill the void with make-believe?

When I find myself in times of trouble, Richard Dawkins comes to me, speaking words of reason, now I see, now I see.
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03-02-2011, 05:14 AM
RE: Christianity is false and immoral. (Hitchens)
(02-02-2011 04:01 PM)TheModerateBeliever Wrote:  
(02-02-2011 03:26 PM)Kikko Wrote:  If I would have grown up somewhere at some time when slavery was normal, I wouldn't see anything wrong with it. But that wouldn't make it moral. In nazi-Germany discrimination against Jews (+other minorities) was generally accepted, but even though they thought it wasn't morally wrong, doesn't mean that the discriminators wouldn't have been bad people. The same applies to slavery.

Wait a second.... how can an act that is condoned by society not be moral? I thought morality was determined by society? I understand you don't want to seem like you're condoning slavery, but that almost sounded like you were subscribing morality to some higher power... perhaps the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
I don't think morality is determined by society. Even if the society would think that there's nothing immoral in robbing Africans from their home to be a slave, it wouldn't make it moral.
Morality is determined by individuals. It might be arrogant to think that my morality is better than the morality of 16th-century slave owners, but that's what I honestly think.
What do you mean by ''not wanting to seem like I'm condoning slavery''?

Quote:From the sound of creationistpidyn's post, it sounds like he's talking about context. Not morality. Morals and society shift, what is acceptable to our parents isn't necessarily acceptable for us. Think about it. My father would never think about back talking his parents when he was a teenager. I on the other hand fought my parents every step of the way.
Yes, morals and society shift, that's right.
Pidyn's point is the context of time, and my point was (and is), that the horrible laws of the old testament are from God, which either makes God a completely immoral god or a god who's moral views change just like his followers' moral views change.

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03-02-2011, 10:03 AM
RE: Christianity is false and immoral. (Hitchens)
I had a somewhat lengthy reply typed out (imagine that!) but I'll just say this - please stop trying to put words in my mouth. I never stated that Christians are evil or immoral, neither did Christopher Hitchens (at least not in this particular speech, from what I remember). I never stated that I would "never change" (change from what, exactly? there's too many generalities floating around here). I never implied that "truth ultimately being better than deception" is equal to never having lied to anyone. And I have attempted to engage you in discussion, but perhaps I've done a poor job of it.

To go all the way back to the video in the OP, Hitchens is arguing against the core belief that belongs to almost all sects and denominations of Christianity - that Jesus Christ was divine and that he was sacrificed to God for our sins. If you don't believe that tenant, you probably shouldn't label yourself as a Christian. If you don't believe that tenant, then he is not talking to you. If that tenant of Christianity has been thrown out somewhere along the way, please direct me to that information, because it's news to me.

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08-02-2011, 02:37 AM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2011 06:01 AM by Chesstime.)
RE: Christianity is false and immoral. (Hitchens)
TheSixthGlass Said "I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous characterization of Hitchens and his speech. I don't know if he was ever a believer or not, but his "rage" as you put it (which is also mis-characterized, I think) has no bearing on whether or not his statements are true. Are you simply ignoring his comments because you don't like his tone? This is quite typical of a theist asking why an atheist is "mad at god" - thus illustrating the theist's complete misunderstanding and ignorance of the atheist position. "

Exactly Smile
I was in another thread that This may be also appropriate, but I don't remember where. It occurs to me that we have a couple of Theists here, one actually calls himself a creationist by name. So get ready for a shock. But I want to make my position as an Atheist LOUD AND CLEAR!, to those theists. I can't post videos here; (I think); but I can link them......

Actually this one is even better...

The Beauty of The Scientific Method , is the Anticipation of a Better Explanation.
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08-02-2011, 09:09 AM
RE: Christianity is false and immoral. (Hitchens)
I'm not sure why, but apparently after a whopping 2 or 3 pages, I managed to tick off at least one of the theists so much so that he "was done."

Was I incorrect somewhere? Did I misinterpret some things? Perhaps - but that would be the point of further discussion.

The thing is, for the record, I was a Christian much like creationistpidyn appears to be - moderate, mostly cultural... I tended to believe that the Bible had lots of good moral teachings but didn't really like church, so on and so forth. I don't know for sure what he believes because he hasn't really answered that question, and neither has Moderate Believer. Anyway, once I sat down and examined what I believed, I found it to be false. Demonstrably false. Even at its best, the Bible contains maybe a few small kernels of "good morals" but even those are debatable. Even if you follow Jesus as a philosophical teacher, you'll find that upon close examination his philosophy is riddled with falsehoods and terrible advice. Not to mention there's no way of knowing what his teachings actually were or what was tacked on later as the legend grew (if it grew from any facts at all).

But it seems some people just wanted to sound off for a minute and not be challenged at all. Which is fine, everyone is free to do so, but I don't see what it accomplishes.

And my apologies, because I'm as big a pop culture geek as the next guy, but the movie quotes and song excerpts right in the middle of what is supposedly semi-serious discussion is distracting at best and utterly confusing at worst. It's been 20 years or more since I saw the animated Transformers movie and you'll have to forgive me for not being up to speed on the Autobots lore. It is in my netflix queue though.

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18-04-2011, 11:04 AM
RE: Christianity is false and immoral. (Hitchens)
a few more good Hitchslaps:

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21-04-2011, 11:46 AM
RE: Christianity is false and immoral. (Hitchens)
(26-01-2011 09:55 AM)bwilson Wrote:  A concise indictment of Christian doctrines from Christopher Hitchens..probably the best 12 minute polemic I've ever heard. Enjoy! Wink

* Embeded the video

That was very very impressive. So well thought out and insightful.

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