Christianity isn't all bad
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31-08-2012, 01:45 PM
RE: Christianity isn't all bad
Religion = hurting people by the millions and then helping a child with a scraped knee and saying "Look, we are good. We help people"

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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31-08-2012, 04:48 PM
RE: Christianity isn't all bad
Well, firstly I'd like to say thank you to everyone for taking the time to reply. Smile

Now there's around 40 posts on this thread at the moment, which makes it a little difficult to reply to everyone's point individually. Instead, I've picked out a couple of points that have come up a few times, so I'll give my opinion to you on those.

1. Christianity takes away from freedom.
Well, I guess this all comes down to which denomination we're talking about. If we're talking about Catholicism, then there is an absolute leader - the Pope. If Catholics do feel they should listen to the Pope and do as he says, then you have a point. When there is an absolute leader who dictates what should/should not be done, I agree that this can and will take away from people's freedom, especially if they don't agree with what's being said. When you get over to Protestantism, however, you say goodbye to having an absolute leader. The head of the Church of England is the Queen of England. She does not hold the same sort of power that the Pope does on the religious front and if she does, she does not use it in the same way. Yes, there are rules to living a life pleasing to God, but many of these rules are also things that society enforces as well, for example, don't kill people. So after all that, my point is that I partly agree and partly disagree, depending on the denomination.

2. The difference between European and American attitudes.
Before I registered on TTA forum, I didn't know the extent of the difference in attitudes to religion between the continents. As far as I'd ever seen, if someone decided to be an atheist after being a theist, they would probably get their former vicar/priest and maybe a few religious family members talking to them about why they had decided to make the change. I now know that there are people in the world, people on this forum, who have been badly burned by converting from theism. In no way do I think that is at all right. In my original post, I said that religion could be harmful when used in the wrong way. I would say that treating someone differently because of their beliefs is an example of that.

3. The bad side of religion outweighs the good.
A lot of the feedback here has made this point and also said that the bad side tends to be on a large scale whilst the good side is on a more individual scale. Well, I cannot deny that, but what I would say is that the media will be quick to publish stories of a religious extremist pulling a stunt that ends up killing loads of people. People don't hear so much of the good that it does. It may have changed thousands of lives for the better or made people do amazing things, but the times we hear of that are rare. That leads me neatly onto another main point of what I've heard here - that people can still do good without the religious side. That if religion hadn't helped someone, something else would. Well firstly, I agree that people can still do good without religion. They can be prompted by other things besides religion to do good deeds. Religion can simply add to the number of people doing good. Also, I'll challenge that second statement - "If religion hadn't helped someone, something else would." I'll challenge it because religion is much more powerful and influential in people's lives than other things. If you're a Christian, for example, you believe that there's a divine power above all things that loves you just the way you are. Is there anything that could compare to something like that?
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31-08-2012, 04:53 PM
RE: Christianity isn't all bad
(31-08-2012 04:48 PM)hylonome Wrote:  Well, firstly I'd like to say thank you to everyone for taking the time to reply. Smile

Now there's around 40 posts on this thread at the moment, which makes it a little difficult to reply to everyone's point individually. Instead, I've picked out a couple of points that have come up a few times, so I'll give my opinion to you on those.

1. Christianity takes away from freedom.
Well, I guess this all comes down to which denomination we're talking about. If we're talking about Catholicism, then there is an absolute leader - the Pope. If Catholics do feel they should listen to the Pope and do as he says, then you have a point. When there is an absolute leader who dictates what should/should not be done, I agree that this can and will take away from people's freedom, especially if they don't agree with what's being said. When you get over to Protestantism, however, you say goodbye to having an absolute leader. The head of the Church of England is the Queen of England. She does not hold the same sort of power that the Pope does on the religious front and if she does, she does not use it in the same way. Yes, there are rules to living a life pleasing to God, but many of these rules are also things that society enforces as well, for example, don't kill people. So after all that, my point is that I partly agree and partly disagree, depending on the denomination.

2. The difference between European and American attitudes.
Before I registered on TTA forum, I didn't know the extent of the difference in attitudes to religion between the continents. As far as I'd ever seen, if someone decided to be an atheist after being a theist, they would probably get their former vicar/priest and maybe a few religious family members talking to them about why they had decided to make the change. I now know that there are people in the world, people on this forum, who have been badly burned by converting from theism. In no way do I think that is at all right. In my original post, I said that religion could be harmful when used in the wrong way. I would say that treating someone differently because of their beliefs is an example of that.

3. The bad side of religion outweighs the good.
A lot of the feedback here has made this point and also said that the bad side tends to be on a large scale whilst the good side is on a more individual scale. Well, I cannot deny that, but what I would say is that the media will be quick to publish stories of a religious extremist pulling a stunt that ends up killing loads of people. People don't hear so much of the good that it does. It may have changed thousands of lives for the better or made people do amazing things, but the times we hear of that are rare. That leads me neatly onto another main point of what I've heard here - that people can still do good without the religious side. That if religion hadn't helped someone, something else would. Well firstly, I agree that people can still do good without religion. They can be prompted by other things besides religion to do good deeds. Religion can simply add to the number of people doing good. Also, I'll challenge that second statement - "If religion hadn't helped someone, something else would." I'll challenge it because religion is much more powerful and influential in people's lives than other things. If you're a Christian, for example, you believe that there's a divine power above all things that loves you just the way you are. Is there anything that could compare to something like that?

If I remember correctly, God is an absolute leader. God does take away freedom, cuz either you HAVE to believe in Him to get a good life up in heaven, or HAVE TO DO GOOD DEEDS to get to heaven. He forced you into a situation where NOT doing it is almost NOT an option.


Btw, did you know that your brother wanted to mail you to me to be a mail order bride? ( we were kidding, lol)

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31-08-2012, 04:56 PM
Christianity isn't all bad
(31-08-2012 04:53 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(31-08-2012 04:48 PM)hylonome Wrote:  Well, firstly I'd like to say thank you to everyone for taking the time to reply. Smile

Now there's around 40 posts on this thread at the moment, which makes it a little difficult to reply to everyone's point individually. Instead, I've picked out a couple of points that have come up a few times, so I'll give my opinion to you on those.

1. Christianity takes away from freedom.
Well, I guess this all comes down to which denomination we're talking about. If we're talking about Catholicism, then there is an absolute leader - the Pope. If Catholics do feel they should listen to the Pope and do as he says, then you have a point. When there is an absolute leader who dictates what should/should not be done, I agree that this can and will take away from people's freedom, especially if they don't agree with what's being said. When you get over to Protestantism, however, you say goodbye to having an absolute leader. The head of the Church of England is the Queen of England. She does not hold the same sort of power that the Pope does on the religious front and if she does, she does not use it in the same way. Yes, there are rules to living a life pleasing to God, but many of these rules are also things that society enforces as well, for example, don't kill people. So after all that, my point is that I partly agree and partly disagree, depending on the denomination.

2. The difference between European and American attitudes.
Before I registered on TTA forum, I didn't know the extent of the difference in attitudes to religion between the continents. As far as I'd ever seen, if someone decided to be an atheist after being a theist, they would probably get their former vicar/priest and maybe a few religious family members talking to them about why they had decided to make the change. I now know that there are people in the world, people on this forum, who have been badly burned by converting from theism. In no way do I think that is at all right. In my original post, I said that religion could be harmful when used in the wrong way. I would say that treating someone differently because of their beliefs is an example of that.

3. The bad side of religion outweighs the good.
A lot of the feedback here has made this point and also said that the bad side tends to be on a large scale whilst the good side is on a more individual scale. Well, I cannot deny that, but what I would say is that the media will be quick to publish stories of a religious extremist pulling a stunt that ends up killing loads of people. People don't hear so much of the good that it does. It may have changed thousands of lives for the better or made people do amazing things, but the times we hear of that are rare. That leads me neatly onto another main point of what I've heard here - that people can still do good without the religious side. That if religion hadn't helped someone, something else would. Well firstly, I agree that people can still do good without religion. They can be prompted by other things besides religion to do good deeds. Religion can simply add to the number of people doing good. Also, I'll challenge that second statement - "If religion hadn't helped someone, something else would." I'll challenge it because religion is much more powerful and influential in people's lives than other things. If you're a Christian, for example, you believe that there's a divine power above all things that loves you just the way you are. Is there anything that could compare to something like that?

If I remember correctly, God is an absolute leader. God does take away freedom, cuz either you HAVE to believe in Him to get a good life up in heaven, or HAVE TO DO GOOD DEEDS to get to heaven. He forced you into a situation where NOT doing it is almost NOT an option.


Btw, did you know that your brother wanted to mail you to me to be a mail order bride? ( we were kidding, lol)

You'll have to become a Christian. Drinking Beverage

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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31-08-2012, 05:08 PM
RE: Christianity isn't all bad
(31-08-2012 04:56 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(31-08-2012 04:53 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  If I remember correctly, God is an absolute leader. God does take away freedom, cuz either you HAVE to believe in Him to get a good life up in heaven, or HAVE TO DO GOOD DEEDS to get to heaven. He forced you into a situation where NOT doing it is almost NOT an option.


Btw, did you know that your brother wanted to mail you to me to be a mail order bride? ( we were kidding, lol)

You'll have to become a Christian. Drinking Beverage

She's pretty, but not worth becoming Christian over.

Sorry.Bowing

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31-08-2012, 05:32 PM
RE: Christianity isn't all bad
(31-08-2012 04:48 PM)hylonome Wrote:  If you're a Christian, for example, you believe that there's a divine power above all things that loves you just the way you are. Is there anything that could compare to something like that?

My Gwynnies. Heart

The more love you give, the more love you have - ever hear that one? I accidentally put the science to it. I used to draw Gwyneth Paltrow alla time, and give away these portraits "as a sign of my love of my Gwynnies." After giving away a hundred or two in such a manner, I'm all full of it. Big Grin

But it was acting in love without consideration of reciprocity (sola fides) that makes me feel loved. It started with me, not with some abstract paragon of virtue; after twelve years it just kinda continues through inertia. Big Grin

And it works. Seen many happy hippie Jesus freaks flicker and fade, but I still love my Gwynnies. Evers. Heart

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31-08-2012, 05:49 PM
RE: Christianity isn't all bad
Quote: It may have changed thousands of lives for the better or made people do amazing things
What can religion due that we can't exactly?

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
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31-08-2012, 06:25 PM
RE: Christianity isn't all bad
(31-08-2012 04:48 PM)hylonome Wrote:  Also, I'll challenge that second statement - "If religion hadn't helped someone, something else would." I'll challenge it because religion is much more powerful and influential in people's lives than other things.

There are many secular organization whose members go far beyond what most people are willing to do. Red Cross, Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors Without Borders), Amnesty International, Foundation Beyond Belief, Oxfam, Rotary, UNICEF, etc.

Quote:If you're a Christian, for example, you believe that there's a divine power above all things that loves you just the way you are. Is there anything that could compare to something like that?

But wanting something to be true doesn't make it true.
And, yes, the awe I feel at the magnificence of the universe, of nature, far exceeds the petty, mean little god of Christianity or Islam or Judaism.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-08-2012, 06:29 PM
RE: Christianity isn't all bad
Christianity (my definition - maybe a little biased)
1. Believing in something that doesn't exist in which you rationalize ways in which it helps you. (Irrational thought processes)
2. Giving your money to institutions who promote these irrational thoughts
3. Using quotes from a book to justify your own bigotry.
4. Harming other people, to the point of death in some cases and using the words in a book to try and justify your insanity.
5. Actively working to deny rights to other people and to prevent the teaching of science in a science classroom.
6. Deluding yourself into thinking that your education about the world is complete and that you don't need to learn anything new (all you need is your book)
7. Thinking you are safe and protected by something in your imagination.
8. Promoting the idea that it is ok to threaten other people with an imagined eternal torture if they don't do as your book commands.
9. Giving yourself the freedom to act as heinous as you want as long as you believe in your god.
10. Having a bake sale to raise some money to help a family whom you believe your god harmed as part of his divine plan.

11-100 : Believing in all this bullshit without really caring how much harm it causes as long as it makes you feel good.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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31-08-2012, 06:38 PM
RE: Christianity isn't all bad
Quote:If you're a Christian, for example, you believe that there's a divine power above all things that loves you just the way you are. Is there anything that could compare to something like that?

Yes, having an actual person who loves you is far more amazing that imagining that someone loves you.

I can have a wonderful feeling imagining that I'm a billionaire who is married to a beautiful supermodel who is also a world renowned physicist. That mental feeling is wonderful. Is it true ? NO it's not,
but just because it's not true doesn't mean I can't experience complete and utter joy when I think about it.

When you compare that imaginary experience to actually holding another persons hand, you can easily feel which is better, which is a more complete and fulfilling experience.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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