Christianity isn't all bad
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31-08-2012, 06:45 PM
RE: Christianity isn't all bad
(31-08-2012 05:49 PM)Red Tornado Wrote:  
Quote: It may have changed thousands of lives for the better or made people do amazing things
What can religion due that we can't exactly?

Have faith in there God.

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31-08-2012, 06:46 PM
RE: Christianity isn't all bad
(31-08-2012 06:45 PM)Humakt Wrote:  
(31-08-2012 05:49 PM)Red Tornado Wrote:  What can religion due that we can't exactly?

Have faith in there God.

True. But that doesn't really help them in a way we can't - if the angle is at someone loving them, being there for them.

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
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31-08-2012, 06:56 PM
RE: Christianity isn't all bad
(31-08-2012 06:46 PM)Red Tornado Wrote:  
(31-08-2012 06:45 PM)Humakt Wrote:  Have faith in there God.

True. But that doesn't really help them in a way we can't - if the angle is at someone loving them, being there for them.

Not making any judgements, just seemed an obvious answer to you question Smile

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01-09-2012, 01:13 PM
RE: Christianity isn't all bad
(30-08-2012 07:45 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  
(30-08-2012 05:15 PM)hylonome Wrote:  I do think, though, that religion can have a very positive effect on people. It can give people hope - the drive to carry on.

When I hear statements like this I always think of the quote:

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

You can "use" anything to make your life better. That doesn't make the something any less bad for you. If I told you that Krispy Kreme donuts gave me a sense of peace and helped me when I was depressed, does that mean that devouring donuts all day is acceptable?

And every time I hear someone claim that religion can be used to do good things, I always reply, "we don't need the religious part." Keep the humanity, the good will towards man, the charity for the poor. You can cherish all these things without coupling them with a sky king who demands blood sacrifice and genocide.

"By failing to live by the letter of the texts, while tolerating the irrationality of those who do, religious moderates betray faith and reason equally." - Wow. That is bold, and one to really think on. I like it, very good choice of quotes.

“The highest activity a human being can attain is learning for understanding, because to understand is to be free.”
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01-09-2012, 09:40 PM
RE: Christianity isn't all bad
(01-09-2012 01:13 PM)Alice Wrote:  "By failing to live by the letter of the texts, while tolerating the irrationality of those who do, religious moderates betray faith and reason equally." - Wow. That is bold, and one to really think on. I like it, very good choice of quotes.

Why thank you. It's a Sam Harris quote. If anyone is unfortunate enough to have not read The End of Faith, you can catch the first ten pages here.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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02-09-2012, 12:22 AM
RE: Christianity isn't all bad
(01-09-2012 09:40 PM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  
(01-09-2012 01:13 PM)Alice Wrote:  "By failing to live by the letter of the texts, while tolerating the irrationality of those who do, religious moderates betray faith and reason equally." - Wow. That is bold, and one to really think on. I like it, very good choice of quotes.

Why thank you. It's a Sam Harris quote. If anyone is unfortunate enough to have not read The End of Faith, you can catch the first ten pages here.

I have not read that yet! I still have many Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins books to finish though, I did read his short book letter to a Christian Nation. It was pretty good. I had thought about buying the end of faith but I don't know Sam Harris at least in the interviews I have seen wasn't too impressive, well not like a Hitch or Dawkins. Have you read god is not great? If so which do you think is better? Right now I'm trying to get though the greatest show on earth but i'm not too into science but wanted to know facts and understand evolution, then I was going to read the god delusion. My favorite book though so far (I just started reading for fun this past year, because I realized I liked non-fiction and thats why I didn't think I liked to read) is American Fascist by Chris Hedges. If you haven't read that it is awesome, although I guess his other books aren't very good.

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02-09-2012, 04:59 AM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2012 04:03 AM by Logica Humano.)
Rainbow RE: Christianity isn't all bad
I'm listening to the Excision Shambhala 2011 mix, the heaviest dubstep in the world. Prepare for an aggressive intellectual beatdown. All gloves are coming off. Wink





(31-08-2012 04:48 PM)hylonome Wrote:  Well, firstly I'd like to say thank you to everyone for taking the time to reply. Smile

This is an extreme claim you are making. Of course we are going to debate about it. Big Grin

(31-08-2012 04:48 PM)hylonome Wrote:  Now there's around 40 posts on this thread at the moment, which makes it a little difficult to reply to everyone's point individually. Instead, I've picked out a couple of points that have come up a few times, so I'll give my opinion to you on those.

The key here is that you state these are opinions. I respect you for that, though it would be best to back them up with facts.

(31-08-2012 04:48 PM)hylonome Wrote:  1. Christianity takes away from freedom.
Well, I guess this all comes down to which denomination we're talking about. If we're talking about Catholicism, then there is an absolute leader - the Pope. If Catholics do feel they should listen to the Pope and do as he says, then you have a point. When there is an absolute leader who dictates what should/should not be done, I agree that this can and will take away from people's freedom, especially if they don't agree with what's being said. When you get over to Protestantism, however, you say goodbye to having an absolute leader. The head of the Church of England is the Queen of England. She does not hold the same sort of power that the Pope does on the religious front and if she does, she does not use it in the same way. Yes, there are rules to living a life pleasing to God, but many of these rules are also things that society enforces as well, for example, don't kill people. So after all that, my point is that I partly agree and partly disagree, depending on the denomination.

You're failing to recognize the divinity of God if you do not believe he is the absolute leader. In religions like Catholicism, God still remains the dictator with the Pope the supposed spokesperson. I should know, I am an ex-Catholic.

Religion is a restriction on every aspect of humanity. From intellectual capabilities, to moral issues. A prime example would be abortion. Those who appose it (both religious and not) are uneducated as to what defines a life, who should be making the decision, and what it is used for. You, as a woman, should know how evil religion is. If you want to know, check out my thread pointing out the blatant contradictions of religious dogma and feminism/equal rights advocates.

The bottom line:
It depends on what you decide defines your deity. You can either have an omnipotent God, or an impotent God that allows free will. Either way, if he exists, he is an evil fuck.


(31-08-2012 04:48 PM)hylonome Wrote:  2. The difference between European and American attitudes.
Before I registered on TTA forum, I didn't know the extent of the difference in attitudes to religion between the continents. As far as I'd ever seen, if someone decided to be an atheist after being a theist, they would probably get their former vicar/priest and maybe a few religious family members talking to them about why they had decided to make the change. I now know that there are people in the world, people on this forum, who have been badly burned by converting from theism. In no way do I think that is at all right. In my original post, I said that religion could be harmful when used in the wrong way. I would say that treating someone differently because of their beliefs is an example of that.

I have yet to witness this thing you call "good religion". I have been all over the world, seen a massive array of different religions and people, and they are all the same close-minded, intolerant, bigoted morons that they are in the Bible belt. You claim you are an atheist, they condemn you to hell.

For example, "I'll pray for you," is one of the worst things you can say to me. It implies that you have some moral superiority, when in reality, you don't. You require a book to base your morality on. I exert effort into deciding what is right by projecting myself in said moral concerns. But of course, to the religious, they are doing the 'right' thing.

I do not understand why you are religious. You do not fit the criteria.

(31-08-2012 04:48 PM)hylonome Wrote:  3. The bad side of religion outweighs the good.
A lot of the feedback here has made this point and also said that the bad side tends to be on a large scale whilst the good side is on a more individual scale. Well, I cannot deny that, but what I would say is that the media will be quick to publish stories of a religious extremist pulling a stunt that ends up killing loads of people. People don't hear so much of the good that it does. It may have changed thousands of lives for the better or made people do amazing things, but the times we hear of that are rare. That leads me neatly onto another main point of what I've heard here - that people can still do good without the religious side. That if religion hadn't helped someone, something else would. Well firstly, I agree that people can still do good without religion. They can be prompted by other things besides religion to do good deeds. Religion can simply add to the number of people doing good. Also, I'll challenge that second statement - "If religion hadn't helped someone, something else would." I'll challenge it because religion is much more powerful and influential in people's lives than other things. If you're a Christian, for example, you believe that there's a divine power above all things that loves you just the way you are. Is there anything that could compare to something like that?

Justify these, process, research them, and get back to me with this "biased" media.

Some of religion's favorite pastimes:
Albigensian Crusade
Almohad Conquest of Muslim Spain
Anglo-Scottish War (1559–1560)
Arab Conquest of Carthage
Aragonese-Castilian War
Aragonese-French War (1209–1213)
First Bearnese Revolt
Second Bearnese Revolt
Third Bearnese Revolt
First Bishop’s War
Second Bishop’s War
Raids of the Black Hundreds
Bohemian Civil War (1465–1471)
Bohemian Palatine War
War in Bosnia
Brabant Revolution
Byzantine-Muslim War (633–642)
Byzantine-Muslim War (645–656)
Byzantine-Muslim War (688–679)
Byzantine-Muslim War (698–718)
Byzantine-Muslim War (739)
Byzantine-Muslim War (741–752)
Byzantine-Muslim War (778–783)
Byzantine-Muslim War (797–798)
Byzantine-Muslim War (803–809)
Byzantine-Muslim War (830–841)
Byzantine-Muslim War (851–863)
Byzantine-Muslim War (871–885)
Byzantine-Muslim War (960–976)
Byzantine-Muslim War (995–999)
Camisards’ Rebellion
Castilian Conquest of Toledo
Charlemagne’s Invasion of Northern Spain
Charlemagne’s War against the Saxons
Count’s War
Covenanters’ Rebellion (1666)
Covenanters’ Rebellion (1679)
Covenanters’ Rebellion (1685)
Crimean War
First Crusade
Second Crusade
Third Crusade
Fourth Crusade
Fifth Crusade
Sixth Crusade
Seventh Crusade
Eighth Crusade
Ninth Crusade
Crusader-Turkish Wars (1100–1146)
Crusader-Turkish Wars (1272–1291)
Danish-Estonian War
German Civil War (1077–1106)
Ghost Dance Uprising
Siege of Granada
First Iconoclastic War
Second Iconoclastic War
India-Pakistan Partition War
Irish Tithe War\
Javanese invasion of Malacca
Great Java War
Kappel Wars
Khurramite’s Revolt
Lebanese Civil War
Wars of the Lombard League
Luccan-Florentine War
Luccan-Florentine War
Holy Wars of the Mad Mullah
Maryland’s Religious War
Mecca-Medina War
Mexican Insurrections
War of the Monks
Mountain Meadows Massacre
Revolt of Muqanna
Crusade of Nicopolis
Padri War
Paulician War
Persian Civil War (1500–1503)
Portuguese-Moroccan War (1458–1471)
Portuguese-Moroccan War (1578)
Portuguese-Omani Wars in East Africa
Rajput Rebellion against Aurangzeb
Revolt in Ravenna
First War of Religion
Second War of Religion
Third War of Religion
Fourth War of Religion
Fifth War of Religion
Sixth War of Religion
Eighth War of Religion
Ninth War of Religion
Roman-Persian War (421–422)
Roman-Persian War (441)
Russo Turkish War (1877–1878)
First Sacred War
Second Sacred War
Third Sacred War
Saladin’s Holy War
Schmalkaldic War
Scottish Uprising against Mary of Guise
Serbo-Turkish War
Shimabara Revolt
War of the Sonderbund
Spanish Christian-Muslim War (912–928)
Spanish Christian-Muslim War (977–997)
Spanish Christian-Muslim War (1001–1031)
Spanish Christian-Muslim War (1172–1212)
Spanish Christian-Muslim War (1230–1248)
Spanish Christian-Muslim War (1481–1492)
Spanish Conquests in North Africa
Swedish War
Thirty Years’ War
Transylvania-Hapsburg War
Tukulor-French War
Turko-Persian Wars
United States War on Terror
Vellore Mutiny
Vjayanagar Wars
First Villmergen War
Second Villmergen War
Visigothic-Frankish War

Religion is not good. It is an assortment of evil hearts, with only a few good ones among them.

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02-09-2012, 08:59 AM (This post was last modified: 02-09-2012 09:16 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Christianity isn't all bad
So I'm catching up with this thread on the plane and waiting for someone (other than hylonome and KC, of course) to at least have a stab at mentioning a positive effect of religion... maybe a la Alain de Botton - style... community etc.

But not a peep!

I will give it a shot but I would have to change the thread title to "Christianity wasn't all bad"

It was our first attempt at...
Ah! Who am I trying to kid? Hitch said it better than I ever could...






The "can't be good without god" argument is best trounced I think, by this from LK Washburn (from 1911):

"Every kiss of love imprinted by a mother's lips on the face of her babe gives the lie to the Christian doctrine of total depravity, and every gift which the heart of pity lays in the hand of misfortune brands this doctrine as false and a libel on our human nature".


But...
I get in a taxi at the airport and, not surprisingly given that it's the end of Ramadan and everyone is feeling cosy and pious, the taxi driver is listening to the 24/7 Quran channel (dunno what it's really called) and I get that sinking feeling, thinking I'm going to be rolling my eyes and grinding my teeth for the next 40 mins.

I inhale deeply and decide this time not to pick a fight.

So I'm listening and the format is like this:
A reading of a verse in Arabic in that kinda wailing tone which is then translated into English - not modern English - kinda 18th century, King Jamesy English.

And...

It's beautiful!

It's fucking nonsense, but it's beautiful... hypnotic and calming.

And then I laughed. Well, you know, it was a reading from Chapter 7 and non-believers that didn't follow the righteous path were going to the Islamic version of hell etc.

The driver smiled and asked if understood Arabic. I told him: no, but I have read the Quran. He asked if I was a free-thinker ("atheist" is an unknown term here).

Of course he asked where I came from. I said: Singapore. He said: No, you twat (or the Malay version of that) I mean if god didn't create you etc.
I had to explain evolution.

We then had quite a good conversation about various aspects of his life, Malaysian government corruption etc., and he explained how the Quran as a guidebook has helped him straighten out his life. He wished Malaysian government and religious officals would follow the righteous path but power corrupts etc.

In that one small example, I would have to agree with the OP... sort of.

However, in the west, where so much more is known and embedded into the educational system, there is no excuse for ignorance.

So is there good in religion?

Yes, because ignorance is bliss.

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07-09-2012, 01:25 AM
RE: Christianity isn't all bad
I've thought of another +1 for christianity...

We have had a recent influx (thanks to A2) of deluded, self righteous (insert adjectives of your choice) youngsters. At least, I hope they are youngsters and therefore pitiable; if they are pastors, well, you yanks have the right to bear arms so please do your duty.

Not only does this provide us with some sport but it also seems to have a unifying effect on the community (and even the rational theists (forgive the oxymoron) are part of the team).

That's +2 benefits, I guess.

A2, sir ... go... fetch!

Drooling

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07-09-2012, 07:03 AM
RE: Christianity isn't all bad
(02-09-2012 08:59 AM)DLJ Wrote:  So I'm catching up with this thread on the plane and waiting for someone (other than hylonome and KC, of course) to at least have a stab at mentioning a positive effect of religion... maybe a la Alain de Botton - style... community etc.

But not a peep!

I will give it a shot but I would have to change the thread title to "Christianity wasn't all bad"

It was our first attempt at...
Ah! Who am I trying to kid? Hitch said it better than I ever could...






The "can't be good without god" argument is best trounced I think, by this from LK Washburn (from 1911):

"Every kiss of love imprinted by a mother's lips on the face of her babe gives the lie to the Christian doctrine of total depravity, and every gift which the heart of pity lays in the hand of misfortune brands this doctrine as false and a libel on our human nature".


But...
I get in a taxi at the airport and, not surprisingly given that it's the end of Ramadan and everyone is feeling cosy and pious, the taxi driver is listening to the 24/7 Quran channel (dunno what it's really called) and I get that sinking feeling, thinking I'm going to be rolling my eyes and grinding my teeth for the next 40 mins.

I inhale deeply and decide this time not to pick a fight.

So I'm listening and the format is like this:
A reading of a verse in Arabic in that kinda wailing tone which is then translated into English - not modern English - kinda 18th century, King Jamesy English.

And...

It's beautiful!

It's fucking nonsense, but it's beautiful... hypnotic and calming.

And then I laughed. Well, you know, it was a reading from Chapter 7 and non-believers that didn't follow the righteous path were going to the Islamic version of hell etc.

The driver smiled and asked if understood Arabic. I told him: no, but I have read the Quran. He asked if I was a free-thinker ("atheist" is an unknown term here).

Of course he asked where I came from. I said: Singapore. He said: No, you twat (or the Malay version of that) I mean if god didn't create you etc.
I had to explain evolution.

We then had quite a good conversation about various aspects of his life, Malaysian government corruption etc., and he explained how the Quran as a guidebook has helped him straighten out his life. He wished Malaysian government and religious officals would follow the righteous path but power corrupts etc.

In that one small example, I would have to agree with the OP... sort of.

However, in the west, where so much more is known and embedded into the educational system, there is no excuse for ignorance.

So is there good in religion?

Yes, because ignorance is bliss.

Agreed, ignorance is bliss.....is that the Grand Valley State sign?!?!?! ugh! I just started going back to school and we live like 42 minutes from there, so thats where I'm for now until I get my Bachelors and then we will probably move. I wish I would have started free thinking way before, now I will never see Chistopher Hitchens! I would have loved to see a debate live.

“The highest activity a human being can attain is learning for understanding, because to understand is to be free.”
― Baruch Spinoza
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