Christianity with no afterlife
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26-02-2015, 09:50 AM
RE: Christianity with no afterlife
(26-02-2015 09:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-02-2015 10:05 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Where does anyone get the essence of there being some grand forgiveness, grace, or meaningful message in life if there if not from there being more to the world after life? I don't think there is a strong distinction of these topics and afterlife... apart from community

Well, I didn't mean them in a grand sense, but in the very real human sense.

I don't find many christians down in the dumps because of something someone did 10,000 years ago, by eating a fruit. I find that many folks have a hard time forgiving themselves, have found themselves in a predicament of despair and failure, and with inability to find a way out of it. Their lives are the sort occupied by despair and resentment, and second chances appear as impossibilities. And often times it not just a matter of forgiving oneself, but also forgiving others.

Christianity places a great deal of investment in such concepts, starting over, a new sense of life, an emphasis on forgiveness, and grace, whose conceivable reward is in this life, rather than the next.

What I was trying to get at about it is.. I'm not certain these ideas come into existence without the starting point of Christianity/Religion overall's emphasis on these ideas. You are talking about these concepts as if they're totally unconnected to the ideas of afterlife. I do not think that is certainly the case.

The point is would people actually have the views of needing forgiveness, renewal, or grace if there didn't have the idea of them formulated by Christianity preaching them as paths to heaven?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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26-02-2015, 10:36 AM
RE: Christianity with no afterlife
(26-02-2015 09:50 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  The point is would people actually have the views of needing forgiveness, renewal, or grace if there didn't have the idea of them formulated by Christianity preaching them as paths to heaven?

For the sort of folks I'm speaking about, yes. It may not be true for everyone, but for many people yes.
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26-02-2015, 11:48 AM
RE: Christianity with no afterlife
(25-02-2015 12:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(25-02-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Have you considered that since the Jewish people consider conversion to Christianity a grievous error, that since the time of Christ they've leaned more to "no afterlife" despite a) statements re: the afterlife in Tanach b) statements re: the afterlife by the Pharisees and Saducees as recorded in the debates of the New Testament c) statements re: the afterlife in Talmud, Kabbalah, Zohar, etc.?

I'm saying there is an agenda there, which only shows a confirmatory bias.

The only "agenda" apparently is an attempt to slap simplistic modern Fundie interpretations onto Ancient (complex evolving) History.
They might NOW think that about conversion, I really don't know, but actually you have no clue WHAT they thought of "conversion" (or being a member of the sub-sect of JEWS called "The Way"..which later started calling themselves "Christians") back then. Doing your "Presentist Fallacy" you are assuming Jews thought then, what some do now. For at least 100 years (In the First Century), Christians REMAINED Jews, and were always Jews. They did not "convert". It got so bad the High Priest required the synagogues to read the Expulsion Curses. By the time the Pharisees and other groups had split up into camps, Jewish Apocalypticism was well developed, and the concept of afterlife" had CHANGED radically in the couple hundred years before (supposedly) your Christ came on the scene. However, in the year 400 St. John Chrysostom in his Christmas sermon was STILL telling Christians in his city, (Constantinople), to STOP going to the synagogue. We have a copy of that sermon.

Respectfully, your argument is self-contradictory:

I agree that Christianity was a Jewish sect until Masada and beyond, the Roman diaspora. Therefore, if the Jews accepted the Christians as a sect at that time, they were doing so while acknowledging the belief of the Christians that there was an afterlife--demonstrating exactly my point, "that since the time of Christ they've leaned more". You may want to look up the word "since" in the dictionary. It will demonstrate I agree with you and have both the context of 1st century Jewish Christianity and the more modern separation.

Also, you (apparently in anger, I'm not sure why you are mad when I asked you a respectful question) ducked my question.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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26-02-2015, 11:53 AM
RE: Christianity with no afterlife
(26-02-2015 10:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-02-2015 09:50 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  The point is would people actually have the views of needing forgiveness, renewal, or grace if there didn't have the idea of them formulated by Christianity preaching them as paths to heaven?

For the sort of folks I'm speaking about, yes. It may not be true for everyone, but for many people yes.

And where do these desires come from? In what ways do they spring up in non-religious areas of life for people?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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26-02-2015, 05:35 PM
RE: Christianity with no afterlife
(25-02-2015 06:10 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(25-02-2015 05:40 PM)mordant Wrote:  That's my thought. Christianity is a set of self-reinforcing memes that have evolved to work together. Remove any one key sub-meme and the whole thing is greatly weakened.

I'd say that's not true. Proof; there are over 10000 denominations which all have different beliefs and many of them are quite strong.

I gotta go with Tarzan here. Think there are something like 45,000 different Christian denominations now. I have not been able to find a single Christian doctrine which has not been rejected by one or more of these denominations. It's not as vulnerable as a 3-legged stool.

#sigh
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26-02-2015, 06:16 PM
RE: Christianity with no afterlife
(25-02-2015 05:25 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(25-02-2015 11:13 AM)Clockwork Wrote:  The last church I was in didn't have an immediate afterlife.
Christadelphian?

Not them, but they seem to have a bit in common.
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