Christians Claim Big Bang
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23-03-2014, 02:09 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 09:19 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Because it isn't evidence at all. People invented gods as well as churches. People established hospitals too. No god had anything to do with those.

Do you have some type of argument or evidence for these claims?
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23-03-2014, 02:12 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 07:05 PM)Charis Wrote:  mmmmm Taq's puttin' his back into it! Evil_monsterAngel

Taq, you should bring some of this heavy thrusting into the banter thread. Tongue

Or the boxing ring.
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23-03-2014, 02:22 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 09:41 PM)Charis Wrote:  Jeremy, the reason DLJ added "the belief in" into your statement was because the establishment of churches and hospitals in the names of their respective gods is only evidence of a belief in these gods held by a group of people... it's not evidence for the existence of the god him/her/itself.

Why? If this is a truth claim it needs to be supported by evidence.

(22-03-2014 09:41 PM)Charis Wrote:  These are not evidence for Allah's involvement in the universe. These mosques and hospitals can only really be evidence for the Muslims' *belief in* the existence of Allah and *their belief in* what is in the Qu'ran and the Hadiths. I'm sure it will be a cold day in Hell before you look at all these mosques and hospitals and think to yourself,"Well gee whiz, there's evidence for Allah over the Biblical Jesus after all!" No, you wouldn't say that, mainly because (I hope) you know that it doesn't work that way.

Why would I not see the existence of mosques and hospitals as evidence that God is involved in the world?

You seem to be arguing that since there are hospitals and places of worship within various religions that therefore God does not actually exist but rather that people only belive He exists.

But how does the conclusion follow? What argument do you have for your first premise?
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23-03-2014, 02:24 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(23-03-2014 02:09 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 09:19 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Because it isn't evidence at all. People invented gods as well as churches. People established hospitals too. No god had anything to do with those.

Do you have some type of argument or evidence for these claims?

Right...

Let's disprove the intervention of a god that itself hasn't been proven to exist (or even coherently defined). You really are that stupid...

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23-03-2014, 02:26 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 09:45 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 09:41 PM)Charis Wrote:  Jeremy, the reason DLC added "the belief in" into your statement was because the establishment of churches and hospitals in the names of their respective gods is only evidence of their belief in these gods... it's not evidence for the existence of the god him/her/itself.

Let's look at Islam, for instance. There are hospitals built and mosques built by the Muslims. These are not evidence for the existence of Allah. These mosques and hospitals can only really be evidence for *the belief in* the existence of Allah and *their belief in* what is in the Qu'ran and the Hadiths.

Also, there are these Buddhist hospitals and Buddhist temples and associations near NYC. The fact of their establishment does not provide evidence for Buddhism but for the fact that there are people who hold *a belief in* Buddhism.

Yep.

Belief in something existing =/= that thing actually existing.

This is why nobody will debate Walker, if he's so ignorant as to fail to understand this, then there is nothing to be learned by engaging with him.

Existence is an ontological issue. I also know that belief in something does not equate with that thing's existence.

An atheist may believe that God does not exist but this does not mean that God does not exist.

If it is your view that churches are not evidence for God's involvement in the universe then this is a truth claim and needs to be evidenced by good argument.
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23-03-2014, 02:28 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(23-03-2014 02:26 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 09:45 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yep.

Belief in something existing =/= that thing actually existing.

This is why nobody will debate Walker, if he's so ignorant as to fail to understand this, then there is nothing to be learned by engaging with him.

Existence is an ontological issue. I also know that belief in something does not equate with that thing's existence.

An atheist may believe that God does not exist but this does not mean that God does not exist.

If it is your view that churches are not evidence for God's involvement in the universe then this is a truth claim and needs to be evidenced by good argument.

Jesus Merrygoround Christ.........

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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23-03-2014, 02:28 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(23-03-2014 02:24 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(23-03-2014 02:09 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Do you have some type of argument or evidence for these claims?

Right...

Let's disprove the intervention of a god that itself hasn't been proven to exist (or even coherently defined). You really are that stupid...

I think you see now that just making bald assertions is easy. Backing them up with evidence is not. Especially when assuming so great a burden.

Ad hominems are fallacies by the way.
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23-03-2014, 02:29 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(23-03-2014 02:26 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 09:45 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yep.

Belief in something existing =/= that thing actually existing.

This is why nobody will debate Walker, if he's so ignorant as to fail to understand this, then there is nothing to be learned by engaging with him.

Existence is an ontological issue. I also know that belief in something does not equate with that thing's existence.

An atheist may believe that God does not exist but this does not mean that God does not exist.

If it is your view that churches are not evidence for God's involvement in the universe then this is a truth claim and needs to be evidenced by good argument.

You fucking dumbass...

Churches are not evidence for your god's existence anymore so than they are evidence for the existence of the Intangible Invisible Pink Unicorn. So how about you 'prove' that all those churches are not evidence for the IIPU, then I'll use your method to show how they're not evidence for your god. Drinking Beverage

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23-03-2014, 02:29 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(23-03-2014 02:28 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(23-03-2014 02:26 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Existence is an ontological issue. I also know that belief in something does not equate with that thing's existence.

An atheist may believe that God does not exist but this does not mean that God does not exist.

If it is your view that churches are not evidence for God's involvement in the universe then this is a truth claim and needs to be evidenced by good argument.

Jesus Merrygoround Christ.........

I am a skeptic. I like evidence, sound reason, and good argument to be presented to me when I have to assess truth claims.
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23-03-2014, 02:31 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(23-03-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(23-03-2014 02:26 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Existence is an ontological issue. I also know that belief in something does not equate with that thing's existence.

An atheist may believe that God does not exist but this does not mean that God does not exist.

If it is your view that churches are not evidence for God's involvement in the universe then this is a truth claim and needs to be evidenced by good argument.

You fucking dumbass...

Churches are not evidence for your god's existence anymore so than they are evidence for the existence of the Intangible Invisible Pink Unicorn. So how about you 'prove' that all those churches are not evidence for the IIPU, then I'll use your method to show how they're not evidence for your god. Drinking Beverage

Shifting the burden will avail you of nothing. And once again you made a truth claim which needs supporting.
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