Christians Claim Big Bang
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23-03-2014, 07:46 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(23-03-2014 06:59 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I actually was just asking a question. Claims that we make that we want others to accept as true are truth claims.

If someone says that the existence of churches is not evidence that God is involved in the world and they want me to accept that statement as a fact, then they have the burden of proof in substantiating that claim if I ask them to.

Switching the burden over to me is not answering the question. It is switching the burden over to me.

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about. And you are quibbling and equivocating.


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23-03-2014, 07:48 AM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2014 06:24 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
EDIT: Corrected to address JAQkoff's post, rather than EK's (which was done in error).

(23-03-2014 02:28 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I think you see now that just making bald assertions is easy. Backing them up with evidence is not. Especially when assuming so great a burden.

Ad hominems are fallacies by the way.

Insults are not ad hominem FALLACIES, moron.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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23-03-2014, 07:58 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(23-03-2014 07:48 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Insults are not ad hominem FALLACIES, moron.

They are when used as a reason to reject one's argument, i.e. Jeremy is a moron, his arguments are false.

They can also be used as red herrings.
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23-03-2014, 08:04 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(23-03-2014 07:58 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(23-03-2014 07:48 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Insults are not ad hominem FALLACIES, moron.

They are when used as a reason to reject one's argument, i.e. Jeremy is a moron, his arguments are false.

They can also be used as red herrings.

You are an idiot. But your arguments suck too, so there is that. Consider

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23-03-2014, 08:45 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(23-03-2014 08:04 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(23-03-2014 07:58 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  They are when used as a reason to reject one's argument, i.e. Jeremy is a moron, his arguments are false.

They can also be used as red herrings.

You are an idiot. But your arguments suck too, so there is that. Consider

And I respect your opinion. I also thank you for sharing it. However, if you want me to take that statement as "truth" or "fact", I ask you to substantiate it. Rolleyes
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23-03-2014, 09:43 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(23-03-2014 08:45 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(23-03-2014 08:04 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  You are an idiot. But your arguments suck too, so there is that. Consider

And I respect your opinion. I also thank you for sharing it. However, if you want me to take that statement as "truth" or "fact", I ask you to substantiate it. Rolleyes

As evidence, I cite everything you've posted so far. Q.E.D. Drinking Beverage

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23-03-2014, 09:45 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
It seems relevant to the professed topic of this thread to point out that Lemaître[1] who was the actual original proponent of the theory was a catholic priest, and this is not a new idea for Christians to claim that the big bang shows the Biblical account is in some sense correct. Compared to alternative prevailing models such as steady state, the big bang at least has some sense of a beginning.

(21-03-2014 05:16 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  I remember seeing one creationist giving a perfect example of natural selection being observed in action, and then claimed it wasn't evolution because the animals in question hadn't gained "information".

And he was right and you were wrong. Ok, he was wrong too. Mutations cannot add information, only noise. This is pretty basic signal processing and information theory. If you add random fluctuations to a signal you distort that signal and reduce the amount of information that can be read back out. If you add random mutations to the genome of a population, over time that population's genome will be utterly destroyed. Every gene will become broken and useless, smashed up by random changes.

Unless.

Unless there is some process by which information is added to the population genome. As much as we think of mutations being the source of information in evolution, it is actually the natural selection phase that adds information.

Forget individuals, because that just confuses the issue. Let's just consider a genome. Let's say a genome is just a few letters long and there is some optimal sequence for survival. If the population starts with a random string of letters and mutates randomly over time you'll not get any closer to the optimal sequence over successive generations. You'll mutate in every direction with no guide in place to drive to an orderly outcome. However, if you give individuals that have a better fit to the optimal sequence just a few percentage points breeding advantage compared to less fit individuals the population genome will rapidly converge on the optimal sequence.

It is actually the removing of noise from the mutations and retaining that all important "fit for this environment" signal that we add information to a genome. Selection adds information in the same way Michelangelo is said to have added the information of his statues to the bare marble before him: By removing all the pieces he did not need. Natural selection removes the mutations the species does not need and allows the mutations the species does need to dominate the population genome.

It is almost a nonsense to talk about adding information by mutation to a particular individual. Genome information content can only really be understood at that population level, and it is increased by selection in combination with the mutations that provide raw material for the selection process... where the information content of the genome roughly corresponds to a signal of fitness for the environment. Noise that distorts that fitness signal will be filtered out by natural selection while random mutations that increase the signal will be retained by natural selection.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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23-03-2014, 06:19 PM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(23-03-2014 07:46 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(23-03-2014 06:59 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I actually was just asking a question. Claims that we make that we want others to accept as true are truth claims.

If someone says that the existence of churches is not evidence that God is involved in the world and they want me to accept that statement as a fact, then they have the burden of proof in substantiating that claim if I ask them to.

Switching the burden over to me is not answering the question. It is switching the burden over to me.

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about. And you are quibbling and equivocating.


[Image: funny-pictures-auto-comics-logic-371546.jpeg]

You know Taq, I had composed an entire argument in my head that pretty much said the same thing as the meme you posted then I saw your post and said 'fuck it', if the guy doesn't see the issue here it can't be made any simpler than that. Thumbsup

But it was fun to contemplate in my mind.

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23-03-2014, 06:25 PM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(23-03-2014 07:58 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(23-03-2014 07:48 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Insults are not ad hominem FALLACIES, moron.

They are when used as a reason to reject one's argument, i.e. Jeremy is a moron, his arguments are false.

They can also be used as red herrings.

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

Ad Hominem Fallacy: "X has a criminal record, therefore X's argument is invalid."

NOT a Fallacy: JAQoff is a fucking idiot.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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23-03-2014, 06:29 PM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(23-03-2014 06:19 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(23-03-2014 07:46 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  You don't know what the fuck you are talking about. And you are quibbling and equivocating.


[Image: funny-pictures-auto-comics-logic-371546.jpeg]

You know Taq, I had composed an entire argument in my head that pretty much said the same thing as the meme you posted then I saw your post and said 'fuck it', if the guy doesn't see the issue here it can't be made any simpler than that. Thumbsup

But it was fun to contemplate in my mind.

Well, here's the other half of it -- and the reason no one will "debate" this fucktard -- I'm surprised no one else has already posted it:

[Image: i-451f5356ad30f214361cd29fda6a4963-debatingrules.jpeg]

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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