Christians Claim Big Bang
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21-03-2014, 10:09 PM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(21-03-2014 10:04 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  Also noticed you completely ignored the first hospital established in the US was secular, as many of them are.

You are conflating secularism with atheism. They are not the same thing.
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21-03-2014, 10:15 PM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2014 10:19 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(21-03-2014 10:00 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(21-03-2014 09:23 PM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  Really? For me, there are a couple dozen hospitals within 75 miles. Not a single one is religion related. Even the ones with quasi-religious names are now for profit hospitals.

So, do your religious communities offer free health care? Or do they charge for their services? Seems it should be free, since they collect all that money on Sundays to "help others." Is that how your hospitals work?

St Jude's Children's hospital never sends a bill to the patients.

Any atheists hospitals like that?....no....because there aren't any hospitals built by atheist communities.

It seems ALL the hospitals in some countries were NOT founded by religionists.

(From The Rational Response Squad : http://www.rationalresponders.com/how_ma...ists_built )
One of the first American hospital is New York's Bellevue hospital, established in 1736, was a city hospital, started by a secular, non-religious government. The city HAD to because religious people were failing in their mission to care for the sick and ailing.

The first American hospital was created as a result of a business venture. Master Jacob Hendrickszen Varrevanger, surgeon to the Dutch West India Company, created the first hospital in the same region in 1658.

The first university in the US was not religious. Rather than being a center for educating clergy as in old European universities, this university (University of Pennsylvania, established in 1751) trained students for careers in business and public service. Religious missionaries were too busy caring for people's afterlives rather than their lives on Earth.

Religious hospitals get 36% of all their revenue from Medicare; public hospitals get only 27%. In addition to that 36% of public funding they get 12% of their funding from Medicaid. Of the remaining 44% of funding, 31% comes from county appropriations, 30% comes from investments, and only 5% comes from charitable contributions (not necessarily religious). The percentage of Church funding for Church-run hospitals comes to a grand total of 0.0015 percent.

"The claim that the religious build hospitals gives the illusion that the religious are more charitable than the secular, non-religious. With hospitals, at least, that isn't the case. Every hospital writes off a certain percentage of medical revenue as charitable care. The religious hospitals aren't the least charitable of hospitals, but they're close to it. For-profit hospitals provided, on average, only 0.8% of their gross patient revenue as charity care; religious hospitals came in with 1.9%. On the other hand the secular non-profit hospitals had 2% and the godless secular public hospitals provided 5.1%."

Robert Ingersoll's response to the question, "What hospitals have Atheists built?" is surprisingly relevant over a hundred years later. Despite European Christians being on the American continent for hundreds of years, they have been lacking in providing the medical charity they are credited for. The answer to the question "How many American hospitals have Atheists built?" is "All of them."

Of the 13% of religious hospitals, all of them are maintained by public funds. Those public funds are not paid for exclusively by the religious, they certainly aren't supported by American churches. If the religious hospitals were to be truly religious and separated from secular governmental subsidies they would collapse. The question that the Christian apologist should be asked is, "Where are all the truly religious hospitals?" Slapping a Catholic or Methodist label upon a hospital wall isn't sufficient enough to create a truly independent, private religious hospital free from Atheist support.

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21-03-2014, 10:36 PM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(21-03-2014 10:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(21-03-2014 10:00 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  St Jude's Children's hospital never sends a bill to the patients.

Any atheists hospitals like that?....no....because there aren't any hospitals built by atheist communities.

It seems ALL the hospitals in some countries were NOT founded by religionists.

(From The Rational Response Squad : http://www.rationalresponders.com/how_ma...ists_built )
One of the first American hospital is New York's Bellevue hospital, established in 1736, was a city hospital, started by a secular, non-religious government. The city HAD to because religious people were failing in their mission to care for the sick and ailing.

The first American hospital was created as a result of a business venture. Master Jacob Hendrickszen Varrevanger, surgeon to the Dutch West India Company, created the first hospital in the same region in 1658.

The first university in the US was not religious. Rather than being a center for educating clergy as in old European universities, this university (University of Pennsylvania, established in 1751) trained students for careers in business and public service. Religious missionaries were too busy caring for people's afterlives rather than their lives on Earth.

Religious hospitals get 36% of all their revenue from Medicare; public hospitals get only 27%. In addition to that 36% of public funding they get 12% of their funding from Medicaid. Of the remaining 44% of funding, 31% comes from county appropriations, 30% comes from investments, and only 5% comes from charitable contributions (not necessarily religious). The percentage of Church funding for Church-run hospitals comes to a grand total of 0.0015 percent.

"The claim that the religious build hospitals gives the illusion that the religious are more charitable than the secular, non-religious. With hospitals, at least, that isn't the case. Every hospital writes off a certain percentage of medical revenue as charitable care. The religious hospitals aren't the least charitable of hospitals, but they're close to it. For-profit hospitals provided, on average, only 0.8% of their gross patient revenue as charity care; religious hospitals came in with 1.9%. On the other hand the secular non-profit hospitals had 2% and the godless secular public hospitals provided 5.1%."

Robert Ingersoll's response to the question, "What hospitals have Atheists built?" is surprisingly relevant over a hundred years later. Despite European Christians being on the American continent for hundreds of years, they have been lacking in providing the medical charity they are credited for. The answer to the question "How many American hospitals have Atheists built?" is "All of them."

Of the 13% of religious hospitals, all of them are maintained by public funds. Those public funds are not paid for exclusively by the religious, they certainly aren't supported by American churches. If the religious hospitals were to be truly religious and separated from secular governmental subsidies they would collapse. The question that the Christian apologist should be asked is, "Where are all the truly religious hospitals?" Slapping a Catholic or Methodist label upon a hospital wall isn't sufficient enough to create a truly independent, private religious hospital free from Atheist support.

Oh, Bucky. Clearly you've been misled by mere facts.

Why, you can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.

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22-03-2014, 01:43 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(21-03-2014 09:04 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  ...
Why would what I just wrote above in response to Paranoidsam's reply not be relevant to his point?

I think you are conflating the existence of god with the concept of the existence of god.

If you want it colour coded:
Belief in the existence of
Actual existence of
"Why would not the existence of churches, and the hospitals that were established by churches be evidence that your statement regarding God's involvement in the universe is false?"

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22-03-2014, 04:49 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 01:43 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(21-03-2014 09:04 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  ...
Why would what I just wrote above in response to Paranoidsam's reply not be relevant to his point?

I think you are conflating the existence of god with the concept of the existence of god.

If you want it colour coded:
Belief in the existence of
Actual existence of
"Why would not the existence of churches, and the hospitals that were established by churches be evidence that your statement regarding God's involvement in the universe is false?"

So what you are saying is that my post was irrelevant because God does not exist?

If that is the case then you have made a truth claim. Do you have any evidence or argument to support this claim.
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22-03-2014, 04:50 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(21-03-2014 09:42 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(21-03-2014 06:38 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Are you familiar with the historical correlation between churches and hospitals?

That is what I was referring to.

You mean the fact that religions exploit hospitals as opportunities to spread their brain-disease bullshit to captive audiences who are at vulnerable points in their lives.

I did not know that was a fact? What is your evidence/argument/source for this "fact"?

Also, no, that is not the correlation I was speaking of.
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22-03-2014, 05:19 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 04:49 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 01:43 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I think you are conflating the existence of god with the concept of the existence of god.

If you want it colour coded:
Belief in the existence of
Actual existence of
"Why would not the existence of churches, and the hospitals that were established by churches be evidence that your statement regarding God's involvement in the universe is false?"

So what you are saying is that my post was irrelevant because God does not exist?

If that is the case then you have made a truth claim. Do you have any evidence or argument to support this claim.

Now, I don't think I did say that, did I?

Nice try. No

Meanwhile, back in reality, all those creation-deities must be really getting on each others' nerves now that they are all hiding in such a tiny space.

Big Grin

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22-03-2014, 05:42 AM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2014 05:45 AM by Jeremy E Walker.)
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 05:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 04:49 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  So what you are saying is that my post was irrelevant because God does not exist?

If that is the case then you have made a truth claim. Do you have any evidence or argument to support this claim.

Now, I don't think I did say that, did I?

Nice try. No

Meanwhile, back in reality, all those creation-deities must be really getting on each others' nerves now that they are all hiding in such a tiny space.

Big Grin

Well, I am interested in trying to understand your reply to mine earlier.

You said there is a difference in the concept of the existence of God and the existence of God. Let me be charitable and grant that. What is it that your are trying to argue by saying that in response to what I said?

Are you saying that while we may be able to conceive of God's existence, that is a totally different matter than God's actually existing?

Is that your point?
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22-03-2014, 07:29 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 05:42 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  ...
Is that your point?

OK, Jeremy E Walker (may I call you JEW, for convenience?) firstly, I was not trying to argue... I was being dismissive.

Secondly, yes, that was the point.

Sam said, with characteristic tongue-in-cheekiness:
(21-03-2014 03:48 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  Well, that settles it then... God's total involvement in the universe lasted less than 1 trillionth of a second.

Looks like we're on our own... Time to knock down those churches and use the bricks to build hospitals.

... obviously referring to a 'deistic' position and with a non-sequitur made reference to the 'theistic' position for comic effect.

Your response...
(21-03-2014 06:00 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  It is interesting that you mention churches and hospitals in the same sentence...

Quite ironic actually...

... with a total lack of irony, it seemed to me, alluded to a historical (but not exclusive, as others have pointed out) connection between two now largely independent institutions.

Perhaps you are saying that if the gods had used a big handkerchief when they sneezed the big bang, we would not now have the benefit of advanced leech theory, I dunno, but it seems irrelevant to me.

Sleepy

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22-03-2014, 07:50 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 05:42 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 05:19 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Now, I don't think I did say that, did I?

Nice try. No

Meanwhile, back in reality, all those creation-deities must be really getting on each others' nerves now that they are all hiding in such a tiny space.

Big Grin

Well, I am interested in trying to understand your reply to mine earlier.

You said there is a difference in the concept of the existence of God and the existence of God. Let me be charitable and grant that. What is it that your are trying to argue by saying that in response to what I said?

Are you saying that while we may be able to conceive of God's existence, that is a totally different matter than God's actually existing?

Is that your point?

Are you a theist by any chance?

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