Christians Claim Big Bang
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22-03-2014, 07:52 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 07:29 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Secondly, yes, that was the point.

A proponent of the Ontological argument would challenge this point. And while it is not my point at the moment to put forth the argument, what can be said is that your point is not as conclusive as you imagine it to be.

(22-03-2014 07:29 AM)DLJ Wrote:  ... with a total lack of irony, it seemed to me, alluded to a historical (but not exclusive, as others have pointed out) connection between two now largely independent institutions.

I do not think anyone here has argued that hospitals owe their existence exclusively to the endeavors of the members of the church. Whether or not the two institutions are now largely independent of one another is moot to any point that has been made thus far regarding the two and their historical connection.

(22-03-2014 07:29 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Perhaps you are saying that if the gods had used a big handkerchief when they sneezed the big bang, we would not now have the benefit of advanced leech theory, I dunno, but it seems irrelevant to me.

Sleepy

I simply asked why would the existence of churches and the hospitals established by them not be seen as evidence for God's involvement in the universe?

I knew he was being sarcastic. I nevertheless took the opportunity to ask this question which has yet to be answered.
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22-03-2014, 07:52 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 07:50 AM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 05:42 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Well, I am interested in trying to understand your reply to mine earlier.

You said there is a difference in the concept of the existence of God and the existence of God. Let me be charitable and grant that. What is it that your are trying to argue by saying that in response to what I said?

Are you saying that while we may be able to conceive of God's existence, that is a totally different matter than God's actually existing?

Is that your point?

Are you a theist by any chance?

I am.
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22-03-2014, 08:07 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 07:52 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 07:50 AM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Are you a theist by any chance?

I am.

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22-03-2014, 08:10 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 07:52 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  ...
A proponent of the Ontological argument would challenge this point.
...

And they would be laughed at, no doubt.

Quote:...
I simply asked why would the existence of churches and the hospitals established by them not be seen as evidence for God's involvement in the universe?
...

Indeed, but you answered it yourself when you correctly demonstrated your understanding of my earlier point.

But just in case you missed it:
"the existence of churches and the hospitals established by them" would be "seen as evidence for" the belief in "God's involvement in the universe."

btw, I am a theist too.

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22-03-2014, 08:20 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 08:10 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 07:52 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  ...
A proponent of the Ontological argument would challenge this point.
...

And they would be laughed at, no doubt.

Quote:...
I simply asked why would the existence of churches and the hospitals established by them not be seen as evidence for God's involvement in the universe?
...

Indeed, but you answered it yourself when you correctly demonstrated your understanding of my earlier point.

But just in case you missed it:
"the existence of churches and the hospitals established by them" would be "seen as evidence for" the belief in "God's involvement in the universe."

btw, I am a theist too.

Its always good to see a theist call out bullshit.

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22-03-2014, 08:23 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
Theists... Dodgy

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22-03-2014, 08:25 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(21-03-2014 09:04 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(21-03-2014 06:48 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  Yes but what was called a "hospital" in the middle ages was more of a motel for pilgrims... Which is why its called a hospital.

Medicine has moved on a long way since the time when churches would take in the sick... Now they're just wasted buildings. Better to knock 'em down, or convert them into brothels.

You stated with regards to the assertion that God caused the Big Bang that, "God's total involvement in the universe lasted less than 1 trillionth of a second..."

Why would not the existence of churches, and the hospitals that were established by churches be evidence that your statement regarding God's involvement in the universe is false?



(21-03-2014 06:48 PM)DLJ Wrote:  No. 'Cause I'm only 5 years old.

I also understand that both empathy and incident resolution are important when people require help.

But it's irrelevant to Sam's point.

Why would what I just wrote above in response to Paranoidsam's reply not be relevant to his point?

You've completely missed the point...

The article the OP linked to used the confirmation of rapid inflation in the immediate aftermath of the Big Bang as evidence for God's existence...

If that is the case (which I seriously doubt) then the only action in the entire history of the universe we can directly attribute to God lasted no longer than 1 trillionth of a second. Since then the laws of physics have driven everything...

So, my point is, a God that hasn't shown his face around here in nearly 14 billion years is hardly worth wasting time, effort, money and resources on... In other words, churches are a waste of space, so let's knock them down or convert them into something useful... Like a hospital, school, police station, brothel etc...

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22-03-2014, 08:32 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 08:25 AM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  ...
brothel

Now we are definitely on the same wavelength. I can gravitate to that.

Big Grin

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22-03-2014, 08:42 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 08:32 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 08:25 AM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  ...
brothel

Now we are definitely on the same wavelength. I can gravitate to that.

Big Grin

Even a meth-lab would be more productive...

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22-03-2014, 09:03 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 08:25 AM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  
(21-03-2014 09:04 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  You stated with regards to the assertion that God caused the Big Bang that, "God's total involvement in the universe lasted less than 1 trillionth of a second..."

Why would not the existence of churches, and the hospitals that were established by churches be evidence that your statement regarding God's involvement in the universe is false?




Why would what I just wrote above in response to Paranoidsam's reply not be relevant to his point?

You've completely missed the point...

The article the OP linked to used the confirmation of rapid inflation in the immediate aftermath of the Big Bang as evidence for God's existence...

If that is the case (which I seriously doubt) then the only action in the entire history of the universe we can directly attribute to God lasted no longer than 1 trillionth of a second. Since then the laws of physics have driven everything...

So, my point is, a God that hasn't shown his face around here in nearly 14 billion years is hardly worth wasting time, effort, money and resources on... In other words, churches are a waste of space, so let's knock them down or convert them into something useful... Like a hospital, school, police station, brothel etc...

As a former theist, often what is believed is that a god was the "creator" of the laws of physics, and science merely discovered them. That is why they don't believe in "nothingness" as described by science, but rather an "intelligent being" brought the universe into existence, giving us the laws of physics to figure out the universe etc...

Faith is not logical. It presupposes a lot. Just my two cents if it helps any.

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