Christians Claim Big Bang
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22-03-2014, 09:29 AM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 09:03 AM)Deidre32 Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 08:25 AM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  You've completely missed the point...

The article the OP linked to used the confirmation of rapid inflation in the immediate aftermath of the Big Bang as evidence for God's existence...

If that is the case (which I seriously doubt) then the only action in the entire history of the universe we can directly attribute to God lasted no longer than 1 trillionth of a second. Since then the laws of physics have driven everything...

So, my point is, a God that hasn't shown his face around here in nearly 14 billion years is hardly worth wasting time, effort, money and resources on... In other words, churches are a waste of space, so let's knock them down or convert them into something useful... Like a hospital, school, police station, brothel etc...

As a former theist, often what is believed is that a god was the "creator" of the laws of physics, and science merely discovered them. That is why they don't believe in "nothingness" as described by science, but rather an "intelligent being" brought the universe into existence, giving us the laws of physics to figure out the universe etc...

Faith is not logical. It presupposes a lot. Just my two cents if it helps any.

Presuppositional Apologetics is just about all they have left any more. Stick around long enough and you'll see that for yourself.

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22-03-2014, 05:03 PM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 08:10 AM)DLJ Wrote:  And they would be laughed at, no doubt.

Why?

(22-03-2014 08:10 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Indeed, but you answered it yourself when you correctly demonstrated your understanding of my earlier point.

But just in case you missed it:
"the existence of churches and the hospitals established by them" would be "seen as evidence for" the belief in "God's involvement in the universe."

btw, I am a theist too.

Why did you insert the bolded portion in my statement?
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22-03-2014, 05:08 PM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
DLJ is Theist?

Hum. Did not know.
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22-03-2014, 05:26 PM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 05:08 PM)Charis Wrote:  DLJ is Theist?

Hum. Did not know.

I was 10 years old or younger, kneeling in a pew, and thought to myself… “what would happen if I broke the rules and opened my eyes?”. Oddly, nothing happened and ... my eyes were opened.

I realised that while praying, I was talking to myself.

This meant that either:
a) no one was listening or
b) I am god.

I chose b) and given that I had just intervened in my own life, I must be a theistic rather than deistic entity.

Two things come from this...
1.
[Image: eerdekens-godego.jpg]
2. As Girlyman is oft want to point out...



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22-03-2014, 05:37 PM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 05:03 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 08:10 AM)DLJ Wrote:  And they would be laughed at, no doubt.

Why?

'Cause it's silly.

My god is bigger than your god and always will be.

(22-03-2014 05:03 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  ...
Why did you insert the bolded portion in my statement?

For Integrity:
Relates to the accuracy and completeness of information as well as to its validity in accordance with values and expectations.

Any time. No need to thank me.

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22-03-2014, 05:44 PM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 05:37 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 05:03 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Why?

'Cause it's silly.

My god is bigger than your god and always will be.

(22-03-2014 05:03 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  ...
Why did you insert the bolded portion in my statement?

For Integrity:
Relates to the accuracy and completeness of information as well as to its validity in accordance with values and expectations.

Any time. No need to thank me.

Thumbsup

So I am talking with God right now? or a god?
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22-03-2014, 05:48 PM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 05:03 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 08:10 AM)DLJ Wrote:  And they would be laughed at, no doubt.

Why?

(22-03-2014 08:10 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Indeed, but you answered it yourself when you correctly demonstrated your understanding of my earlier point.

But just in case you missed it:
"the existence of churches and the hospitals established by them" would be "seen as evidence for" the belief in "God's involvement in the universe."

btw, I am a theist too.

Why did you insert the bolded portion in my statement?

Because you're talking about irrational beliefs, not facts.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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22-03-2014, 05:50 PM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 07:52 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 07:29 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Secondly, yes, that was the point.

A proponent of the Ontological argument would challenge this point. And while it is not my point at the moment to put forth the argument, what can be said is that your point is not as conclusive as you imagine it to be.

(22-03-2014 07:29 AM)DLJ Wrote:  ... with a total lack of irony, it seemed to me, alluded to a historical (but not exclusive, as others have pointed out) connection between two now largely independent institutions.

I do not think anyone here has argued that hospitals owe their existence exclusively to the endeavors of the members of the church. Whether or not the two institutions are now largely independent of one another is moot to any point that has been made thus far regarding the two and their historical connection.

(22-03-2014 07:29 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Perhaps you are saying that if the gods had used a big handkerchief when they sneezed the big bang, we would not now have the benefit of advanced leech theory, I dunno, but it seems irrelevant to me.

Sleepy

I simply asked why would the existence of churches and the hospitals established by them not be seen as evidence for God's involvement in the universe?

I knew he was being sarcastic. I nevertheless took the opportunity to ask this question which has yet to be answered.

And they'd be wrong, since not a single working ontological argument has been introduced in 2000 years of presenting them.

They all rely on presupposition of God's existence, unsupported flawed premises, and a conclusion that doesn't follow.

But, by all means, flop one of those stale rehashed arguments out.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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22-03-2014, 05:53 PM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 05:48 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(22-03-2014 05:03 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Why?


Why did you insert the bolded portion in my statement?

Because you're talking about irrational beliefs, not facts.

What irrational beliefs are you referring to?
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22-03-2014, 05:55 PM
RE: Christians Claim Big Bang
(22-03-2014 05:50 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  And they'd be wrong, since not a single working ontological argument has been introduced in 2000 years of presenting them.

Do you have any support or evidence to back this claim up?

(22-03-2014 05:50 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  They all rely on presupposition of God's existence,

How so?


(22-03-2014 05:50 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  unsupported flawed premises,

Name one and why it is unsupported and flawed.


(22-03-2014 05:50 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  and a conclusion that doesn't follow.

Really? Why?
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