Christians Move To EXECUTE Women For Abortions
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
15-02-2017, 10:56 AM
RE: Christians Move To EXECUTE Women For Abortions
(15-02-2017 10:52 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Heath_Tierney Wrote:So, "Give all you have to the poor and follow me" is a Libertarian directive?
This is not what Jesus said. Unless we read different books of Matthew.

Are you limiting your knowledge to just Matthew?

He says it in Mark.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-02-2017, 11:07 AM
RE: Christians Move To EXECUTE Women For Abortions
(15-02-2017 10:16 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(14-02-2017 07:35 PM)Alla Wrote:  [Early Christians] freely shared everything. Communists will force you to share. They will take everything from you against your will. Check out North Korea.
Communism as proposed by Marx is a utopian concept in which everyone willingly shares and is equal. In and of itself it does not propose forcing people to do anything. The problem of course is that some people don't want to share, and end up being forced, and others have a different concept of what it means to share and in what contexts, and then, like with religion, doctrines and dogmas develop and anyone who does not cooperate is an enemy of the utopian society you are trying to build and so you end up forcibly parting people from their property.

The early Christians would have been no less human and therefore no different, except that they were a small minority trying to survive in an environment of persecution. This gave them a strong shared experience that bound them together. and motivated personal sacrifices and sharing But as soon as they grew in numbers and in social acceptability, they encountered the same problems that all communist systems encounter: the concept does not scale and does not enjoy 100% participation, and it therefore either falls into totalitarianism, or, as happened with the early church, it is replaced by some form of private property and competition.

Most Christians today do not attempt to replicate the "all for one and one for all" zeitgeist claimed to be true of the early church, and the ones who attempt it fail. Therefore we can conclude that it was a product of special circumstances that existed in the early church. It was straight-up communism, made to work under particular constraints and influences within the context of a larger society that was not communist. To suggest that it was different somehow from communism or that it was communism made to work because the participants had special virtues because of their faith, is to practice confirmation bias.
I am glad that you understand that communism is utopia. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I enjoys reading your points of view.
I can tell you why God was teaching early Christians and later when His Church(LDS) was restored to share everything, to sacrifice everything. He was teaching them a little bit of heaven. So they would have a better idea. But God knows we are not ready. Mortals are not perfect that is why it was stopped. For now we sacrifice 10% of our income. It is something that is very doable. But it can change any moment. We can be asked to sacrifice more. Then we will be ready even more to enter Kingdom of God.
Step by step.
An those were people who already made their own choice - they chose to become citizens of Kingdom of God. They chose to LEARN to live by the laws of heaven.

God also tells us that we have to obey ALL the laws of Kingdom while He knows it is not possible for us to do.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-02-2017, 11:17 AM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2017 11:21 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Christians Move To EXECUTE Women For Abortions
@Mordant

Marx wanted replace "anarchy of the market" with rational plan. Communism was supposed to have two phases - in first one both money and market were to be eliminated;freedom to satisfy individuals need would not exist as it would be collective that would make decisions. There is also issue of liberty - marxist one had nothing to do with liberal concept of individual freedom; freedom was state of being in which individual interest wane. [Andrzej Walicki, From the Communist Project to the Neoliberal Utopia]

Going by Walicki interpretation I see nothing good in communism or maybe rather marxism, it's ideal vehicle for tyranny. It is only nonsensical and dangerous utopia waiting to be hijacked by demagogues and tyrants which should be thrown into dustbin of history. ETA: It's just another religion, at least in Lenin and co take. Marx probably didn't intend it as such.

Having said that USSR wasn't communist state, even it's rulers claimed that they want build communism, not that it exists. But Marx idea was good shield for totalitarian rule as one could call it final objective noble.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Szuchow's post
15-02-2017, 12:07 PM
RE: Christians Move To EXECUTE Women For Abortions
(15-02-2017 11:17 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  @Mordant

Marx wanted replace "anarchy of the market" with rational plan. Communism was supposed to have two phases - in first one both money and market were to be eliminated;freedom to satisfy individuals need would not exist as it would be collective that would make decisions. There is also issue of liberty - marxist one had nothing to do with liberal concept of individual freedom; freedom was state of being in which individual interest wane. [Andrzej Walicki, From the Communist Project to the Neoliberal Utopia]

Going by Walicki interpretation I see nothing good in communism or maybe rather marxism, it's ideal vehicle for tyranny. It is only nonsensical and dangerous utopia waiting to be hijacked by demagogues and tyrants which should be thrown into dustbin of history. ETA: It's just another religion, at least in Lenin and co take. Marx probably didn't intend it as such.

Having said that USSR wasn't communist state, even it's rulers claimed that they want build communism, not that it exists. But Marx idea was good shield for totalitarian rule as one could call it final objective noble.
Yes I think we're on the same page here.

My stepson the philosopher still believes communism can be made to work, but it's mostly an ideal he's clinging to without any rational justification in my view. I think the more useful take-away is that capitalism isn't ideal either, particularly "unbridled" capitalism, it is just better by contrast. His hero, Slavoj Zizek, is a product of Cold War Communism who is unimpressed with both that and Western capitalism. I think that is the more balanced and useful attitude to take. Left to themselves, both for example tend to destroy the environment.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes mordant's post
15-02-2017, 12:12 PM
RE: Christians Move To EXECUTE Women For Abortions
(15-02-2017 10:56 AM)kemo boy Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 10:52 AM)Alla Wrote:  This is not what Jesus said. Unless we read different books of Matthew.

Are you limiting your knowledge to just Matthew?

He says it in Mark.

In both Matthew and Mark Jesus invited young rich man to sell and to give, not just to give.
I don't know if it makes big difference but I just wanted to pointed it out.

So, Jesus invited young rich man to govern himself.
Jesus did not govern young man.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-02-2017, 12:25 PM
RE: Christians Move To EXECUTE Women For Abortions
For fuck's sake, how did I go away for a day and this turns into ten more pages of off-topic discussion about economic theory and the actual definition of totalitarianism?

Alla,

We always understood that the people who call themselves "Pro-Life" think that the fetus is a full human being and thus deserving of the rights we afford to other human beings, including the right to not be killed. That's why, if you read what I wrote before the hijacking, you'd see that I addressed the issue of the purported rights of the fetus by showing that even if we were talking about me (with all the rights I unquestionably possess), I would still not have the right to continue living if my life was being supported by being connected to and medically endangering the life of another person. That other person would always have the right to sever me from their body. I do not have the right to live at the expense of another, whether I am fully-grown me or a fetus.

It bothers us so much because whenever we hear someone talking about the supposed (superior) rights of the fetus over the mother, it not only ignores the above, but it's always couched in terms of sex-shaming... suggesting that a woman's purpose is not liberty but a life of breeding-or-celibacy, except within narrow confines of social permission (the marriage contract) that just happen to fit with the church's patriarchal ideals. Except for the "many wives" thing, which we seem to have entirely moved past, despite it being fully Biblical Patriarchy in origin.

(By the way, that's not a stab at Mormons, but at all the social concepts we borrow from the Old Testament... frankly, the Mormons were the only ones being honest in sticking to what is clearly spelled out as legitimate marriage in the Old Testament. Even David the Shepherd had two wives before he became king and started gaining more!)

The people who claim to be Pro-Life are, underneath all the alleged concern for "unborn babies", exposed to really be in pursuit of a broader religious agenda that controls marriage (thus our objections to the Mormon interference with gay marriage), fights against sexual liberty (including attacking condom distribution and availability of birth control), and pushing the sexual/reproductive "role" women are supposed to play, According to Gawd™.

If it was really about "Pro-Life", there would be other things attached to the position, beyond "force the women to have kids any time they get pregnant!"... which is what others have tried to point out, here.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
15-02-2017, 12:29 PM
RE: Christians Move To EXECUTE Women For Abortions
(15-02-2017 12:07 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 11:17 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  @Mordant

Marx wanted replace "anarchy of the market" with rational plan. Communism was supposed to have two phases - in first one both money and market were to be eliminated;freedom to satisfy individuals need would not exist as it would be collective that would make decisions. There is also issue of liberty - marxist one had nothing to do with liberal concept of individual freedom; freedom was state of being in which individual interest wane. [Andrzej Walicki, From the Communist Project to the Neoliberal Utopia]

Going by Walicki interpretation I see nothing good in communism or maybe rather marxism, it's ideal vehicle for tyranny. It is only nonsensical and dangerous utopia waiting to be hijacked by demagogues and tyrants which should be thrown into dustbin of history. ETA: It's just another religion, at least in Lenin and co take. Marx probably didn't intend it as such.

Having said that USSR wasn't communist state, even it's rulers claimed that they want build communism, not that it exists. But Marx idea was good shield for totalitarian rule as one could call it final objective noble.
Yes I think we're on the same page here.

My stepson the philosopher still believes communism can be made to work, but it's mostly an ideal he's clinging to without any rational justification in my view. I think the more useful take-away is that capitalism isn't ideal either, particularly "unbridled" capitalism, it is just better by contrast. His hero, Slavoj Zizek, is a product of Cold War Communism who is unimpressed with both that and Western capitalism. I think that is the more balanced and useful attitude to take. Left to themselves, both for example tend to destroy the environment.

For me communism is just delusion, dangerous one at that as it have issues with liberalism. It hasn't been tried, that's true but then one can't achieve utopia - there will be no earthly paradise, no "jump from realm of necessity to realm of freedom".

Capitalism I think need to be regulated, invisible hand of the market taking care of all is same fairy tale as communist utopia. Scandinavian countries are pretty good model from what little I know.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Szuchow's post
15-02-2017, 12:42 PM
RE: Christians Move To EXECUTE Women For Abortions
(15-02-2017 10:52 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Heath_Tierney Wrote:So, "Give all you have to the poor and follow me" is a Libertarian directive?
This is not what Jesus said. Unless we read different books of Matthew.

Just for the record, you have misquoted me. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it was an error, not deliberate attempt to misquote me.

I never said anything about the Libertarian directive.

That was done by kemo boy here: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...pid1135942

Regardless, fact remains, communism (to which Jesus ascribed) and totalitarianism (which he fought against) are not the same thing.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-02-2017, 01:00 PM
RE: Christians Move To EXECUTE Women For Abortions
(15-02-2017 12:42 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 10:52 AM)Alla Wrote:  This is not what Jesus said. Unless we read different books of Matthew.

Just for the record, you have misquoted me. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it was an error, not deliberate attempt to misquote me.

I never said anything about the Libertarian directive.

That was done by kemo boy here: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...pid1135942

Regardless, fact remains, communism (to which Jesus ascribed) and totalitarianism (which he fought against) are not the same thing.

Oh, I apologize. Facepalm

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-02-2017, 02:49 PM
Christians Move To EXECUTE Women For Abortions
What amazes me is this: All these goddamn Christians pissing and moaning about abortions, yet, the INSTANT the kid is born they don't give a rats ass about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes treefireguy's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: