Christians and Death
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13-11-2012, 03:43 PM
RE: Christians and Death
(13-11-2012 03:31 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(13-11-2012 03:21 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I was trying to be funny with that post by taking your quote out of context, making it look like that of a religious fundamentalist. Apparently, that didn't work out as I expected. Oh well. Undecided
No, no, I got your humor (the pic kinda put the exclamation point on the humor part); I just thought it would be funny to respond like I might to a fundie. Apparently, that didn't work out as I expected either. Cool

In all seriousness, it's not just a "guess" or a "hypothesis" because some thought, discussion, and even experimentation (well, thought experiments with religious people) went into forming the theory. So it is correct to use the term theory, even though it doesn't live up to the extensive rigors that science uses for its less recognizable use of the word. Personally, I don't think I need a new word; science is confusing one, not me.
Great, now I'm picturing you in a lab coat, in a lab, with your test subject strapped to a table with electrodes attached to their head while you measure their brain functions while you tell them their auntie is dead. You really did go there?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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13-11-2012, 05:46 PM
RE: Christians and Death
(13-11-2012 09:37 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(13-11-2012 08:44 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Then why are parents sad when their kids leave for college?

Or, sad when they move out?
I don't know. It seems pointless to me as well.

(13-11-2012 08:44 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Your brain interprets things as a "loss" and tells you how to deal with them. Losing, in general, makes you sad. Even if there is hope, in the moment, you are still sad.
Do you "hope" that there is an afterlife, or do you know it? Note that the term "know" is meant to be understood as "knowing it for yourself", rather than having absolute knowledge.
The knowing for myself of a place (Heaven) with the same people for squillions of years, sounds ridiculous.

As for reincarnation, or similar; not quite so ridiculous.
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13-11-2012, 06:34 PM
RE: Christians and Death
(13-11-2012 03:00 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(13-11-2012 12:56 PM)Dom Wrote:  Religion has absolutely nothing to do with any of it.

Why not?

If I had a 90-year-old relative suffering from cancer and in pain all the time, AND if I believed, really, truly, believed in Heaven, then when my relative died I would say:

What I would say Wrote:Hallelujah!

They really are in an infinitely better place, happy, pain-free, perfect. While it's true that I miss them today, I know I'll see them soon, a few decades at most, and then we can be happy and pain-free and perfect for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever. This is absolutely the best day of their life and I'm even a little jealous of them for passing away and getting to Heaven today while I'm stuck here on this miserable earth. I can't wait til it's my turn to die so I can leave this crappy rock and join them in Heaven for all eternity.

So yeah, I miss them, but it's really just like they are taking a vacation and I'll see them soon.


I had an aunt die of cancer. It was awful. She was just about 50 years old, much too young for her life to end. When she passed, I missed her. I was upset, even angry that we have things in this world like cancer and that people I love have to suffer from this stuff. But I was glad she didn't have to suffer the cancer anymore. I wished she had never gotten cancer and that she could still be here with us, alive and happy and pain-free, but I also knew that was just a meaningless wish. I missed her and I was sad that she had died. I expected that I would never see her again because I don't believe in afterlives of any kind. That made me sad.

But no, I never hear any religious person saying anything even remotely like my quote above. The closest they come is, through their tears, saying "they're in a better place". But never any hallelujah. Never "I'm jealous they went to heaven before me" or "I wish I were in heaven now too" or "I can't wait to get there too". None of that. They all ACT like this is the only real life and there is no heaven, even while professing to believe in an afterlife.

Their actions do not correspond with their professed beliefs.

That leads me to assume that their belief in an afterlife is little more of a reassurance to them than mine is to me. Hence my theory. And yes, I did go there. Theory. The simple, colloquial use of the word. It is just a theory.


Their actions do not correspond to their belief because they have nothing to do with their belief.

You can believe in purple unicorns carrying her to heaven, it has nothing to do with grief.

Grief has nothing to do with the dead. People don't get that. Grief is about the survivor assimilating a loss. It's universal and religion has nothing to do with it because grief has nothing to do with the dead person. Grief is for and by the living.

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19-11-2012, 01:26 PM
RE: Christians and Death
In all honesty, I was far too hasty with the original post. I forget that I'm new here, since I've been lurking for a while now, and none of you know me.

The "family" I referenced is a large group of utterly insane people. I'm not kidding. They're self-righteous and emotionally abusive. Grandpa was probably the most sane of all of them, and that's probably because he grew up as a Moonshiner and church was really something Grandma did, and he just kind of rolled with it.

I haven't seen or spoken to the family at all in a good five years, since I was kicked out of the church for calling the cops on my mother. (Spare the fist and spoil the grown, independent, married, pregnant daughter, or whatever) When grandpa passed, I was out to dinner with my husband and son. Got a text from my brother "We're on our way there now, are you coming?"


Because the appropriate thing to do when a man dies is to throw an impromptu wake and have half the world gather around the deathbed, not call for the coroner or something. I mean, what were they going to do, pray him back to life? My response was "I don't think I'll be much help".


Let the man die. He had a good life, and he had a good death. The only thing he could possibly regret would be the half of his 8 kids who live their lives as racist, hateful assholes that are CONVINCED they're going to Heaven.


Now, I know my emotions are screwy. But I just can't be sad because an old man died comfortably in his favourite chair. And I can't understand why that makes me the bad guy.


Most of all, I can't understand why I still give a crap.
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19-11-2012, 01:29 PM
RE: Christians and Death
(13-11-2012 02:26 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(13-11-2012 02:06 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  It is imperative. I need to know.
I'll tell you, but then I'll have to kill you and I'm violently opposed to violence, and also:


Oh. My. God. You... you... Not only do you have a mystery job in porn, an good sense of humor, and drink, but you just posted a video of Psych. I MUST know now. I MUST!

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19-11-2012, 01:38 PM
RE: Christians and Death
(19-11-2012 01:26 PM)Seek_Kolinahr Wrote:  In all honesty, I was far too hasty with the original post. I forget that I'm new here, since I've been lurking for a while now, and none of you know me.

The "family" I referenced is a large group of utterly insane people. I'm not kidding. They're self-righteous and emotionally abusive. Grandpa was probably the most sane of all of them, and that's probably because he grew up as a Moonshiner and church was really something Grandma did, and he just kind of rolled with it.

I haven't seen or spoken to the family at all in a good five years, since I was kicked out of the church for calling the cops on my mother. (Spare the fist and spoil the grown, independent, married, pregnant daughter, or whatever) When grandpa passed, I was out to dinner with my husband and son. Got a text from my brother "We're on our way there now, are you coming?"


Because the appropriate thing to do when a man dies is to throw an impromptu wake and have half the world gather around the deathbed, not call for the coroner or something. I mean, what were they going to do, pray him back to life? My response was "I don't think I'll be much help".


Let the man die. He had a good life, and he had a good death. The only thing he could possibly regret would be the half of his 8 kids who live their lives as racist, hateful assholes that are CONVINCED they're going to Heaven.


Now, I know my emotions are screwy. But I just can't be sad because an old man died comfortably in his favourite chair. And I can't understand why that makes me the bad guy.


Most of all, I can't understand why I still give a crap.
You seem to be going from one extreme to the other Wink

You are not the bad guy. And it does look like he died peacefully, as opposed to in the pain that his cancer might have caused him. I think what you are feeling is absolutely normal and not screwy in the least.

I think people responded the way they did (at least I know I did) because the conversation went into why religious people feel sad when someone dies. In general. And for anyone (not you, I mean anyone in general) to claim that as long as you believe in an afterlife, you have no right to grieve your dead, is very very cold-hearted. Also, mocking/attacking people in their hour of grief is about as low as it gets and that's where the thread went.

As to why you still give a crap - it is very difficult to distance oneself from one's family; you may think you've done it and yet all of a sudden you realise that a part of you is still bothered by what they think or do. Families are complicated things...

Anyway, just wanted to say, no, you're not the bad guy here (even if your family thinks it) Hug

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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19-11-2012, 01:38 PM
RE: Christians and Death
I cried like a baby for weeks after one of my aunts died when I was 12ish. I was a "christian" at that point in time and cried because I didn't understand. I cried and I was severely depressed for months because death is an unknown. No matter what anyone tells you (even as a believer), death is scary because it is unknown. They say they are in heaven, I said it too, but that did not mean I could believe it. I mean, she could just as easily have gone to hell. I mean, she went to church as much as the rest of us, which was to say basically not at all. Their assertions didn't help, it only made it worse.

So, why do they get upset when they die (or move away)? Because they don't fully understand what is happening. The uncertainty around what the future holds without them is devastating. I mean, I get upset when something I like gets discontinued. It is a deviation from the norm and we don't like that. Another good example is global climate change. It's going to continue to happen, but we want to engineer a way to stop it. Why? Because the Earth will be different and we don't like that.

I see where you are coming from in your reaction too. An uncle of mine passed away last August (as in over a year ago). I was upset and made it down for the funeral because I wanted to be there to see him before they put him in the ground. I needed it to be real. I also wanted to be there to support my aunt. Give her a hug, and tell her in person that my wife was pregnant. My son is named after that uncle. I think that's why they grieve the most and why people gather, to support each other.

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19-11-2012, 01:39 PM
RE: Christians and Death
(19-11-2012 01:29 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(13-11-2012 02:26 PM)Vera Wrote:  I'll tell you, but then I'll have to kill you and I'm violently opposed to violence, and also:


Oh. My. God. You... you... Not only do you have a mystery job in porn, an good sense of humor, and drink, but you just posted a video of Psych. I MUST know now. I MUST!
You'd better hurry up then, 'cause I've just about had my fill of this place.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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19-11-2012, 02:21 PM
RE: Christians and Death
(12-11-2012 10:42 AM)Seek_Kolinahr Wrote:  My step-grandfather died yesterday.

He was a WWII vet, so it's kind of fitting. He passed peacefully at home, on Veteran's Day, in his favourite blue chair. Frankly, if I live to be 90, I'd consider that a good death.

So why are my Fundie family members so upset? I mean, he's in Heaven now, right? He's not in pain anymore, right? He gets to have a mansion and eat popcorn in a heavenly blue chair or whatever the hell it is people do in heaven.

Worst of all, I'm apparently a soulless arse because I'm not sad. Look, the man's 90 and he had cancer. Yeah, he died. Anyone not living in a land of delusion knows his days were numbered...

oh, wait. Undecided
I've had to emasculate some of my family and their friends at funeral homes, most recently my grandmother's death in 2007. Some of the elderly women were only using the funeral as an excuse to hit on my grandfather, my sister used it to haze me, and my aunts, my grandmother's daughters used it to compare who was the better most sincere offspring. I received nothing but heinous receptions to my words at these people who were in the presence of my grandmother's lifeless form, which went through years of breast cancer, only to obtain stomach cancer and then lung cancer, she's better off dead she knows it and my grandfather who despite has never been the same since he lost his wife of 53 years knows it as well. I've never gone to another since and don't plan to, my mind frame is too uncategorized because I know how normal it is to die.

Leviticus does not justify stupidity, but it is more than enough to define corruption of the human mind.

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19-11-2012, 02:27 PM
RE: Christians and Death
This has always puzzled me as well. If you believe that you're going to be together for all eternity, then being apart for a few decades shouldn't matter to you, should it? It would be kind of like falling to pieces and weeping and wailing whenever your spouse of twenty years goes to the grocery store. They're going to be gone for a few hours at most, then you'll be together again, and so you don't really give it much thought. It should be the same if you believe you're going to be together after death for trillions and trillions of years. "Oh, sure, they're gone for a little while, but compared to what happens after death, the amount of time we're going to be apart right now is, like, one-bazillionth of the time we're going to be together later, so there's nothing to be upset about."

With some believers -- not all -- I think Aseptic Skeptic is right. Deep down inside, they have doubts about this "being together forever in paradise" stuff, and some of them probably don't truly believe it at all. Hence, when a loved one dies, they cry because they know that the person is really dead. I don't think that's the case with all believers, though, and how true believers can be upset about death does strike me as peculiar.
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