Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
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28-08-2015, 07:58 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(28-08-2015 07:20 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Let me try and explain this in a different way... a way most people can understand: Star Wars
LOL, I like your analogy. But most people aren't into reading star wars or playing star wars computer games.

(28-08-2015 07:20 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  So, in order to reconciled KotOR as canon, it has to be reconciled with the empirical evidence that is presented aka the canon of Star Wars.

I hope this helps to clear things up.
That is the crux of it I think.

You guys accept the bible, without question, without skepticism.
You then look to focus your life around certain positions which are asserted via your interpretation of these bible books.

What value do you get from the bible? Why is it so hard to look at life through a lens not tainted by the bible?
Purpose, morals etc, you can use your own great intellect to develop well thought out ideas for these yourself.
You don't lose all purpose when you stop looking to scriptures for guidance.

Do you feel the need to be a sheep guided by a shepherd? As an adult don't you think you owe yourself more credit than that? Don't you have enough faith in yourself to become your own navigator?
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28-08-2015, 08:03 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(27-08-2015 03:35 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(27-08-2015 03:09 PM)Zoebion Wrote:  Because I have an audience that is so unfamiliar with what I am teaching, I have to go slow in my writings, so please, please, please be patient with me, as I am being patient with them. I'm not in any hurry, and as these posts progress, there will be much along these lines we can talk about. I know in forums, sometimes it can be just about spouting out an answer, but I am taking this particular topic in a slow, methodical manner.

Not only unfamiliar but hostile Wink Y'all better have your ducks in a row 'cos any duck that's out of line is out of luck. I'm interested in you purely from a point of view of finding out whether it is actually possible to really *get* scientific evolution theory and the total lack of necessity for a God, and at the same time to remain Christian. From what I understand of you and KC, you guys are different from the fundies in one respect only, and that is that you do not fear or deny science. That is interesting because for me to maintain such a belief would entail such jarring cognitive dissonance that I would have no option but to either shut down my reasoning faculties or abandon my faith - well, it's clear which option I chose.

I want there to be more Christians like you guys though, because you guys are the kind of believers that we can coexist with - not these pushy YEC types who elevate stupidity to a virtue.

Lol yes hostile at times. I got one of my YEC friend's panties in a wad tonight with a post I posted on fb about evolution. I've been called "satan" by my own kind (Christians) and been accused of leading people "astray" lol. And yes, I agree we can coexist because we find common ground through science. Oh, and another funny thing is that within all my interaction with both atheist and YEC, I have been called more disparaging words by YECs than atheist. Sooooo ironic.
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28-08-2015, 08:40 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(28-08-2015 08:03 PM)Zoebion Wrote:  Oh, and another funny thing is that within all my interaction with both atheist and YEC, I have been called more disparaging words by YECs than atheist. Sooooo ironic.

But very understandable. To YEC you are actively attacking and undermining their strongly held beliefs. To someone like me there isn't anything personal about it. I see another human being slowly working their way free from the shackles of superstition and I welcome it.

I'm curious to see where your apologetics lead you.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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29-08-2015, 08:17 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
New post up for those interested. Short and sweet on how the word "create" in Genesis means to assign functions and not create material. Again, I'm the only set of eyes on this, so those of you who read, if there are grammatical errors (which I'm sure there are) please let me know. Thanks.

http://edenstree.weebly.com/the-garden/g...in-genesis
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29-08-2015, 08:23 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(29-08-2015 08:17 PM)Zoebion Wrote:  New post up for those interested. Short and sweet on how the word "create" in Genesis means to assign functions and not create material.

Bluntly, you're reaching so hard that your arms are about to tear themselves from their sockets.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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29-08-2015, 08:39 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
Interesting. Thanks for the Hebrew lesson, too! Didn't see any errors, but I have a headache from exhaust fumes, riding around this afternoon with a bunch of guys, and it's hard for me to focus.

It made me think of the word "made", in English. As I just used it in that sentence, it has the meaning "caused to", and then I made this sentence to explain that. (Created.)

Context!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-08-2015, 09:06 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
Read your latest blog entry Zoebion.

The first question that came to mind was, does it really make any difference whether the word meant “create” of “assign meaning” when the reader still has to believe that bronze age man (the author(s) of Genesis) was contacted by a creator to explain what it had done to get things started?

Regardless of the meaning it is hard for me to worry about the nuances of a word when the overall story is completely unbelievable to me.

Maybe I’m missing something but if “all” God did was assign function and is not the creator of all things then whence did the universe come from in your view and if the god being discussed is part of and not outside time and space then he appears to be superfluous and unnecessary.

Please feel free to challenge my understanding of what you wrote.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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29-08-2015, 09:24 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
From a different blog entry of yours this month, but something I'd definitely like to hear more about:

Quote:Now, when people hear that I am an Evolutionary Creationist, the assumption is that I embraced the theory of evolution first. Then because I compromised and sold out to that godless theory, I began to change my interpretation of Genesis to fit this new godless thought process. That's usually how the ad hominems go. For me, this was not how it went. Once I understood the early chapters of Genesis in their context, this then allowed me to investigate biological evolution on its own terms.

In 2010, I got a hold of John Walton's The Lost World of Genesis 1, and my soul found rest. In this book he talks about seeing the creation narratives in their context- that of the Ancient Near East. He discusses how the creation narratives are about functional origins, not material. During this same time, I began to have discussions with other believers who had embraced the theory of biological evolution. They really challenged me to go back and look at the evidence on my own. I did, but was still resistant to it. Finally, during 2010, after I had read and studied more about the ancient cosmology view, I was convinced that Genesis was not addressing material origins, nor was it interested in our current debates. I became convinced that nowhere does Genesis forbid us to look fully into the claims of modern evolutionary biology.

Now I was ready to truly investigate the evidence for biological evolution in an unbiased manner. What I found was that the evidence is both overwhelming and quite conclusive. For me, the most conclusive evidences were the many transitional fossils, and the DNA/genetic evidence. After coming to this realization, I remember sitting down on my couch one day and asking myself, "now what?" Ah yes, now I understand the Genesis text and see the truth about science, so all is well. Not hardly. This began to open a whole other set of questions: "What does this mean for the true historicity of Adam and Eve?" "What are we to make of Paul's use of Adam?" "Where do we place Adam and Eve in human history?" "What are the implications to the doctrine of original sin?" There are more questions, but you get the picture.

The questions at the bottom, in particular, I too am curious to know your thoughts about. It might be helpful to my Beloved, as well as my own understanding of how she conceives of the two fields of thought. We talk about evolution a lot, both being biologists, but I've been hesitant to press too hard on the theological implications of it.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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30-08-2015, 07:17 AM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(28-08-2015 08:03 PM)Zoebion Wrote:  I have been called more disparaging words by YECs than atheist. Sooooo ironic.

Don't worry, we can fix that Smile

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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30-08-2015, 07:21 AM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
Going back to your blog posts, you said that things can exist in two ways, like a company can exist as an entity purely because we as humans agree to treat it as if it exists. It can own property, enter into agreements etc. However what exists *in the world* is merely a set of cooperating humans. The other sense of existence is the sense in which a rock exists. It's physical. Tangible. You can stick it in a bottle, you can hold it in your hand.

Which sense of existence does God conform to? Big Grin

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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