Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
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30-08-2015, 09:41 AM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(30-08-2015 09:13 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  My point being that we should listen, then talk.

Since as atheists we base many of our replies to Christians on the fact that we have read the Bible and claim to understand it better than the fundamentalist/literalists with whom we are arguing, I'd say it behooves us to gain the best possible understanding we can manage.

If we simply read it ourselves and say "well this is what I think about the English", then we are doing what Southern Baptists and other literalists do, except in reverse, and I don't think that's a viable approach. Listening to the research on the subject, particularly through the lens of someone whom we know and thus can better-understand in "real-time", will be more beneficial to us by far than a mere attempt to debunk the acceptance of the Biblical passages by a Believer.

I'd prefer to see a debate, when it finally occurs, after the initial case has been presented in its entirety, rather than risking losing part of the argument by leaping straight in with our own preconceptions, which is precisely what happened when Hobbins and Bulkeley attacked prior to Walton's full presentation.

I hear you RS and I’ll wait.

Being in the middle of reading the OT in the English translation (painful, painful, painful) as a layman I take what I read at face value without adding or subtracting. I can’t say I’m reading it without bias but I’m certainly not about to do any mental gymnastics to make it sound rational.

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“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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30-08-2015, 01:45 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(30-08-2015 09:13 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  My point being that we should listen, then talk.
OK.

Quote:I'd prefer to see a debate, when it finally occurs, after the initial case has been presented in its entirety, rather than risking losing part of the argument by leaping straight in with our own preconceptions, which is precisely what happened when Hobbins and Bulkeley attacked prior to Walton's full presentation.
I prefer to challenge stuff as and when. As for example this stuff. Z kinda says "this is what Walton says and I agree"... and I don't got no reference for who Walton is or why he should be regarded as an authority. All I wanted to know was how much faith I should place in this Bara thing. I got no idea who any of these guys involved in this debate are, other than that they sound authentically academic. Wikipedia gives me no ref for who these people are - they're obviously not so mainstream as to be famous outside their field. So it's interesting to see that there's disagreement at least, because as the first guy points out *no one* up until Walton has held this view that the Hebrew means *explicitly* this concept of 'assignment of function'. I mean if they *had*, why would anyone translate 'bara' as 'create', if it was accepted scholarly consensus that it didn't actually mean that.

It might be interesting to Christians to see if they can bend their minds around it 'cos it offers them a nice way out to accept both Bible and evolution, but I want to know for sure that the good prof isn't seeing something because he *wants* to. I wanna know that the Hebrew really does say what he claims.

I don't see that I need to wait for the whole darn series of blog posts to be out before I ask stupid questions.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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30-08-2015, 02:46 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(30-08-2015 08:30 AM)morondog Wrote:  Oy Zoebion, link for you here: http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/...brew-bara/. Seems like there's some disagreement over Walton's stuff.

Yeah, I read that when it first came out. Of course there are going to people who disagree. There always are, but that doesn't make Walton wrong. YECs disagree with evolutionists, but that doesn't make us wrong.
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30-08-2015, 02:52 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(30-08-2015 02:46 PM)Zoebion Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 08:30 AM)morondog Wrote:  Oy Zoebion, link for you here: http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/...brew-bara/. Seems like there's some disagreement over Walton's stuff.

Yeah, I read that when it first came out. Of course there are going to people who disagree. There always are, but that doesn't make Walton wrong. YECs disagree with evolutionists, but that doesn't make us wrong.

... After all, there is one God and Mohammed is His Prophet. Tongue

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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30-08-2015, 02:55 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(30-08-2015 01:45 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 09:13 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  My point being that we should listen, then talk.
OK.

Quote:I'd prefer to see a debate, when it finally occurs, after the initial case has been presented in its entirety, rather than risking losing part of the argument by leaping straight in with our own preconceptions, which is precisely what happened when Hobbins and Bulkeley attacked prior to Walton's full presentation.
I prefer to challenge stuff as and when. As for example this stuff. Z kinda says "this is what Walton says and I agree"... and I don't got no reference for who Walton is or why he should be regarded as an authority. All I wanted to know was how much faith I should place in this Bara thing. I got no idea who any of these guys involved in this debate are, other than that they sound authentically academic. Wikipedia gives me no ref for who these people are - they're obviously not so mainstream as to be famous outside their field. So it's interesting to see that there's disagreement at least, because as the first guy points out *no one* up until Walton has held this view that the Hebrew means *explicitly* this concept of 'assignment of function'. I mean if they *had*, why would anyone translate 'bara' as 'create', if it was accepted scholarly consensus that it didn't actually mean that.

It might be interesting to Christians to see if they can bend their minds around it 'cos it offers them a nice way out to accept both Bible and evolution, but I want to know for sure that the good prof isn't seeing something because he *wants* to. I wanna know that the Hebrew really does say what he claims.

I don't see that I need to wait for the whole darn series of blog posts to be out before I ask stupid questions.

Certainly, if you aren't following me or if I have taken something for granted and not explained it well enough, ask away.

Also, just because something is new, doesn't mean its wrong. Since the late 19th century, all sorts of ANE documents have been unearth that shed light on the surrounding cultures of that time. Especially beneficial were all the creation and flood narratives. ANE and Old Testament scholars have spent countless hours over the years deciphering these text in order to understand how the ancients think. This new information sheds much light on the context of Genesis. The reason scholars have never said "bara" means assigning functions is because they have not cared to look at all the recent information that has come out in ANE studies. Many of those who disagree with Walton are violating the most fundamental principle of biblical interpretation- historical and cultural context. Who was the audience and how would they have understood this.

Are there people who disagree with Walton? Sure. But from reading their rebuttals, none of them can supply any better argument that deals with the historical and cultural context in a satisfactory way. At the end of the day, they just end up saying, "well, that goes against the way I have traditionally understood it" and we all know that it is a terrible way to argue.
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30-08-2015, 02:56 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(30-08-2015 02:52 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 02:46 PM)Zoebion Wrote:  Yeah, I read that when it first came out. Of course there are going to people who disagree. There always are, but that doesn't make Walton wrong. YECs disagree with evolutionists, but that doesn't make us wrong.

... After all, there is one God and Mohammed is His Prophet. Tongue

lol touche
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30-08-2015, 03:04 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(30-08-2015 09:41 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 09:13 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  My point being that we should listen, then talk.

Since as atheists we base many of our replies to Christians on the fact that we have read the Bible and claim to understand it better than the fundamentalist/literalists with whom we are arguing, I'd say it behooves us to gain the best possible understanding we can manage.

If we simply read it ourselves and say "well this is what I think about the English", then we are doing what Southern Baptists and other literalists do, except in reverse, and I don't think that's a viable approach. Listening to the research on the subject, particularly through the lens of someone whom we know and thus can better-understand in "real-time", will be more beneficial to us by far than a mere attempt to debunk the acceptance of the Biblical passages by a Believer.

I'd prefer to see a debate, when it finally occurs, after the initial case has been presented in its entirety, rather than risking losing part of the argument by leaping straight in with our own preconceptions, which is precisely what happened when Hobbins and Bulkeley attacked prior to Walton's full presentation.

I hear you RS and I’ll wait.

Being in the middle of reading the OT in the English translation (painful, painful, painful) as a layman I take what I read at face value without adding or subtracting. I can’t say I’m reading it without bias but I’m certainly not about to do any mental gymnastics to make it sound rational.

Drinking Beverage

FC

I hear what you are saying. It's not about mental gymnastics, but about understanding a different culture that is far removed from us. It is wrong for us to both read our modern discussion into a text and a people that were not asking the same questions of origins that we were, and to demand that they write in the same manner that we do, etc.

If we are going to try and understand what the text really means, we have to seek to understand what it first meant to the original audience. In the case of the ANE and Genesis, it means trying to understand an ontology that is different from ours in the 21st century.

Follow what I'm saying?
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30-08-2015, 03:05 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(30-08-2015 02:55 PM)Zoebion Wrote:  Are there people who disagree with Walton? Sure. But from reading their rebuttals, none of them can supply any better argument that deals with the historical and cultural context in a satisfactory way. At the end of the day, they just end up saying, "well, that goes against the way I have traditionally understood it" and we all know that it is a terrible way to argue.

I'm happy to read your stuff bearing in mind that there's possible disagreements among the heavies about this. I'm not happy to wave away those disagreements 'cos you, who don't claim to be a scholar, say so. Unless you do so claim?

Please bear in mind I'm dicking with you deliberately, it's not just to be obstructive either. I really do want to know what your argument is, at the same time I don't just want a good story, I wanna know where the weak points are too.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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30-08-2015, 03:15 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(30-08-2015 03:05 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 02:55 PM)Zoebion Wrote:  Are there people who disagree with Walton? Sure. But from reading their rebuttals, none of them can supply any better argument that deals with the historical and cultural context in a satisfactory way. At the end of the day, they just end up saying, "well, that goes against the way I have traditionally understood it" and we all know that it is a terrible way to argue.

I'm happy to read your stuff bearing in mind that there's possible disagreements among the heavies about this. I'm not happy to wave away those disagreements 'cos you, who don't claim to be a scholar, say so. Unless you do so claim?

Please bear in mind I'm dicking with you deliberately, it's not just to be obstructive either. I really do want to know what your argument is, at the same time I don't just want a good story, I wanna know where the weak points are too.

Yeah, I totally understand where you are coming from. I have three theology degrees, but I refuse to refer to myself as a "scholar" because I don't teach at a University/College/Seminary, and would never want to take away from what those in that position do, but that doesn't mean I'm not qualified to weigh in on the discussion or to evaluate their arguments/conclusions and agree/disagree.

Make sense?
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30-08-2015, 03:34 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(30-08-2015 03:15 PM)Zoebion Wrote:  Make sense?

Yeah. OK, I think I figured out what bothered me about this whole thing. It was the lack of reference to weak points. Papers I read (when I read papers, which is infrequently), most people put a special emphasis on saying where they might be wrong. OTOH you're not writing for a technical audience, might confuse the shit outta people to see a whole bunch of 'I might be wrong but', so I'll still grill you here if I wanna, but it is your blog and not a journal article.

I declare unilateral ceasefire for now.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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