Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
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27-08-2015, 03:52 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(27-08-2015 08:51 AM)Zoebion Wrote:  So, my belief in God is not something that is subject to that kind of hypothesis like we do in science. My belief in God is based on revelation (bible), faith, and experience (how he changed me). Which is where atheist and Christian theist have their major disagreements.

I do find it fascinating (and brazen) to base your belief in god on the bible and faith, and disregard the creation story of man in the OT. I mean, I could point you to several christians on these forums that will call you crazy and "not a true christian". If you can replace an account within the word of god with a more reasonable one that is based in science, then the whole friggin' package can and will methodically crumble down - no?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
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27-08-2015, 03:54 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(27-08-2015 03:52 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  I do find it fascinating (and brazen) to base your belief in god on the bible and faith, and disregard the creation story of man in the OT. I mean, I could point you to several christians on these forums that will call you crazy and "not a true christian". If you can replace an account within the word of god with a more reasonable one that is based in science, then the whole friggin' package can and will methodically crumble down - no?

Oddly enough, you *can* balance a card on it's edge if you carefully prop it up with another card Big Grin

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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27-08-2015, 04:54 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(27-08-2015 03:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-08-2015 08:51 AM)Zoebion Wrote:  Presupposition 3: In these posts, I am not arguing for the existence of God.
No, you are just assuming it. Facepalm

That was what I thought as I read the list. It really needs
Presupposition 0: god exists
Presupposition 0a: god is able to interact with the natural world in a way that can't be detected by science

Without those as starting assumptions I don't see that there is any way to get to them as conclusions. With those as axioms it makes virtually any conclusion just as valid as any other. Anybody arguing that their version of what god does or how god operates can only base it on their faith.

I'm all for moving Fundamentalists in the direction of Christians like KC & ZB since that would be a major step froward but it still would leave many people basing their lives on what can only be categorized as a fantasy.

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27-08-2015, 11:30 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(27-08-2015 03:09 PM)Zoebion Wrote:  
(27-08-2015 09:31 AM)morondog Wrote:  Not that I want to get ahead of the storyline or anything, but then where does sin and angry God and all that stuff fit in?

Yeah, I'll get to that. I am going to go verse by verse through Genesis in my writings and podcasts. I'm still doing a lot on the Ancient Near East setting of the book. But one thing real quick, I do not think that Genesis teaches a "fall" from a perfect state, nor do I think the ancients thought of it this way. I don't want to get ahead of myself either, but as I will show, it changes how we view sin/sin nature/original sin.

Because I have an audience that is so unfamiliar with what I am teaching, I have to go slow in my writings, so please, please, please be patient with me, as I am being patient with them. I'm not in any hurry, and as these posts progress, there will be much along these lines we can talk about. I know in forums, sometimes it can be just about spouting out an answer, but I am taking this particular topic in a slow, methodical manner.

Thanks, Dog Cool

While I agree with the others who've posted about the problems with the "God interacts in undetectable-by-science ways" issue, I don't have a problem with those who hold the belief, per se. Ideally, we atheists try to base our lives on the concept of having no fantasies whatsoever, but I think that a closely-examined life would reveal we all have our fantasies of various sorts (and degrees) which we use to get by in the world. One of my favorite examples comes from my favorite sci-fi book, The Forever War, after his Beatiful Woman Love-Interest™ is severely wounded, splitting her lower abdomen wide open, in which state the protagonist finds her, and tries not to keep seeing that image of her while the doctor explains her chances of surviving:

“It was making me a little queasy. Doctors don't seem to realize that most of us are perfectly content not having to visualize ourselves as animated bags of skin filled with obscene glop.”

In other words, I like imagining, as much as possible, that my Beloved is one of the great beautiful things, a sweet-smelling Eighth Wonder of the World™, as my brain has been hardwired by evolution to lie to me about. I am willing to accept a few casual illusions about my world; others in/of the atheism mindset are a bit more hardcore about purging all personal illusions and confronting the ones they find in others. I mention all this to ask for your patience with all of us, in our tone, and also because I just enjoy digression.

I happen to hold some interesting hypotheses on the meaning of the original (pre-literacy and pre-Redaction) Genesis mythology, and the intent of its composers, which I wouldn't mind discussing with you, once you post your analysis of Genesis. Have you read the book Ishmael by Daniel Quinn? He comes closest to summarizing my ideas about the transition from hunter-gatherer mindset to that of civilized humanity, wherein I find fragments of the "original" meaning (as I see the pattern) in the Genesis tale.

The others here didn't like it much, but I'd enjoy the discussion with you, I think, and your research/writing on "the Ancient Near East setting of" Genesis. I enjoy kicking ideas around until they die or are "born again hard", as the Sarge says in "Full Metal Jacket". Big Grin

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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28-08-2015, 03:01 AM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(27-08-2015 11:30 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(27-08-2015 03:09 PM)Zoebion Wrote:  Yeah, I'll get to that. I am going to go verse by verse through Genesis in my writings and podcasts. I'm still doing a lot on the Ancient Near East setting of the book. But one thing real quick, I do not think that Genesis teaches a "fall" from a perfect state, nor do I think the ancients thought of it this way. I don't want to get ahead of myself either, but as I will show, it changes how we view sin/sin nature/original sin.

Because I have an audience that is so unfamiliar with what I am teaching, I have to go slow in my writings, so please, please, please be patient with me, as I am being patient with them. I'm not in any hurry, and as these posts progress, there will be much along these lines we can talk about. I know in forums, sometimes it can be just about spouting out an answer, but I am taking this particular topic in a slow, methodical manner.

Thanks, Dog Cool

While I agree with the others who've posted about the problems with the "God interacts in undetectable-by-science ways" issue, I don't have a problem with those who hold the belief, per se. Ideally, we atheists try to base our lives on the concept of having no fantasies whatsoever, but I think that a closely-examined life would reveal we all have our fantasies of various sorts (and degrees) which we use to get by in the world. One of my favorite examples comes from my favorite sci-fi book, The Forever War, after his Beatiful Woman Love-Interest™ is severely wounded, splitting her lower abdomen wide open, in which state the protagonist finds her, and tries not to keep seeing that image of her while the doctor explains her chances of surviving:

“It was making me a little queasy. Doctors don't seem to realize that most of us are perfectly content not having to visualize ourselves as animated bags of skin filled with obscene glop.”

In other words, I like imagining, as much as possible, that my Beloved is one of the great beautiful things, a sweet-smelling Eighth Wonder of the World™, as my brain has been hardwired by evolution to lie to me about. I am willing to accept a few casual illusions about my world; others in/of the atheism mindset are a bit more hardcore about purging all personal illusions and confronting the ones they find in others. I mention all this to ask for your patience with all of us, in our tone, and also because I just enjoy digression.

I happen to hold some interesting hypotheses on the meaning of the original (pre-literacy and pre-Redaction) Genesis mythology, and the intent of its composers, which I wouldn't mind discussing with you, once you post your analysis of Genesis. Have you read the book Ishmael by Daniel Quinn? He comes closest to summarizing my ideas about the transition from hunter-gatherer mindset to that of civilized humanity, wherein I find fragments of the "original" meaning (as I see the pattern) in the Genesis tale.

The others here didn't like it much, but I'd enjoy the discussion with you, I think, and your research/writing on "the Ancient Near East setting of" Genesis. I enjoy kicking ideas around until they die or are "born again hard", as the Sarge says in "Full Metal Jacket". Big Grin

That doesn't, however, have a lot to do with the fact that "theistic evolution" is an oxymoron.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-08-2015, 07:20 AM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
*sigh*

I've explained this numerous time, but I guess I'll have to explain it again.

The POV he's writing from is a Christian POV. Not an atheist... not a skeptic. So, God exists and the Bible is authoritative and is used as empirical evidence just like science/nature/reality. Since evolution is being accepted within our theological point of view, it has to be reconciled with all the empirical evidence present; which means, reconciling it with the Bible (what he is doing/explaining).

Yes, I get all of it is conjecture or fantasy if you don't believe in God or the Bible, but that point is moot because that's not how it's being presented.

Let me try and explain this in a different way... a way most people can understand: Star Wars

Let's say you're trying to prove that Knights of the Old Republic is, in fact, canonical. In order to do this, you have to accept that Star Wars Episodes 1-6, Clone Wars, and Rebels are authoritative because they have been listed as canon.

If you don't believe in Star Wars or don't believe in canon, then the argument is moot. It doesn't matter how subject is being presented because you don't believe in it to begin with; therefore, it is impossible to prove the assertion.

However, those that do believe in Star Wars canon accept the authority of the aforementioned because they have been listed as canon.

So, in order to reconciled KotOR as canon, it has to be reconciled with the empirical evidence that is presented aka the canon of Star Wars.

I hope this helps to clear things up.

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28-08-2015, 07:32 AM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
Nope.

I want to know if believing in God and scientific evolution theory is possible at the same time. Star Wars is fiction and has nothing to do with reality. Star Wars does not make assertions about reality. Religion does. I'm interested in the precise point where you or your bro's account of the theory of evolution is gonna bring in Jesus, and I'm gonna definitely challenge you on that point.

Also, lol at "the Bible is authoritative and is used as empirical evidence" Laughat

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-08-2015, 07:52 AM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
I am interested in this whole concept of needing to "reconcile" reality and evidence with the bible. It states clearly how god created mankind in Genesis; however, god's word is not free from editing by some folks living a couple of millennia later. Instead of saying god is wrong, you use a scientific explanation for human origins to replace the account in scripture.

Again I say and ask - can't anyone apply this same tactic to all of the other "unbelievable" accounts in the collection of books and stories found within the bible? Or are we leading up to the claim that your brother is a prophet of some sort - cuz warn us now if that is the caseShocking

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
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28-08-2015, 08:49 AM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2015 08:54 AM by Chas.)
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(28-08-2015 07:20 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  *sigh*

I've explained this numerous time, but I guess I'll have to explain it again.

The POV he's writing from is a Christian POV. Not an atheist... not a skeptic. So, God exists and the Bible is authoritative and is used as empirical evidence just like science/nature/reality. Since evolution is being accepted within our theological point of view, it has to be reconciled with all the empirical evidence present; which means, reconciling it with the Bible (what he is doing/explaining).

Yes, I get all of it is conjecture or fantasy if you don't believe in God or the Bible, but that point is moot because that's not how it's being presented.

Let me try and explain this in a different way... a way most people can understand: Star Wars

Let's say you're trying to prove that Knights of the Old Republic is, in fact, canonical. In order to do this, you have to accept that Star Wars Episodes 1-6, Clone Wars, and Rebels are authoritative because they have been listed as canon.

If you don't believe in Star Wars or don't believe in canon, then the argument is moot. It doesn't matter how subject is being presented because you don't believe in it to begin with; therefore, it is impossible to prove the assertion.

However, those that do believe in Star Wars canon accept the authority of the aforementioned because they have been listed as canon.

So, in order to reconciled KotOR as canon, it has to be reconciled with the empirical evidence that is presented aka the canon of Star Wars.

I hope this helps to clear things up.

*sigh*

I've explained this numerous time, but I guess I'll have to explain it again.

Adding a supernatural component to the Theory of Evolution makes it something other than the Theory of Evolution. That does not reconcile it.

The attempt is dead from the get-go.

The reverse argument also holds. If you have to change your Christian theology to accommodate the actual Theory of Evolution, then you haven't reconciled them because your theology changed.

Scientific theories change with the evidence; what does theology do? Consider

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-08-2015, 06:58 PM
RE: Christians and Evolution - A resource for those in question
(28-08-2015 07:52 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  I am interested in this whole concept of needing to "reconcile" reality and evidence with the bible. It states clearly how god created mankind in Genesis; however, god's word is not free from editing by some folks living a couple of millennia later. Instead of saying god is wrong, you use a scientific explanation for human origins to replace the account in scripture.

Again I say and ask - can't anyone apply this same tactic to all of the other "unbelievable" accounts in the collection of books and stories found within the bible? Or are we leading up to the claim that your brother is a prophet of some sort - cuz warn us now if that is the caseShocking

Lol nope, not a prophet. When we look at the bible's origin stories in their ancient near east context, it shows that they have to do with functional origins, not material origins. I'm in the process of writing and podcasting on it now. See here http://edenstree.weebly.com/the-garden/g...g-material
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