Christians are ready to fight themselves it seems.
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09-07-2013, 08:40 AM
RE: Christians are ready to fight themselves it seems.
(07-07-2013 04:53 PM)PatThePoltergeist Wrote:  I had a discussion with a Baptist minister last night when he came visiting and I think it is interesting. We came upon the subject of religious beliefs across the world. He made the age old quote of "I know because I know. God has proven to me." To which my response was that a Muslim or Hindu or Jew would say the same and how could he disprove their conviction. The answer was that they were deceived by Satan and listening to the wrong information. Furthermore, the reason they were so deceived was that they had not been taught the correct message. In essence, he says, they have not studied the teaching of Christ. And if they had, they would surely have converted by now.

And so, I posed a very simple question. Do Jews continue the practice of animal sacrifice? He said "I don't know. I suppose they do." So then you are condemning all other religions as being deceived, for not listening, and yet you yourself have not listened to them? How then can you know if you are not the deceived one? His answer to that was faith (of course).

I then moved the conversation to Christianity itself. I said that the Bible teaches that a house divided cannot stand. And yet, I can name a dozen or more denomination and divisions within Christianity. (I heard somewhere that it is actually more like 5,000+) Surely if the Bible were the undeniable truth of God the followers of biblical teaching would be able to ascertain the correct meaning of the word? Again, no answer.

So then sir, you agree that members of your own religion are following incorrect teachings? Yes. And they are too being deceived? Yes. So then they also are not really Christian? Yes. And you would then condemn the members of your own religion just as you would those of another? Yes.

He ended up finding an excuse to leave shortly thereafter. I wish I could show you the look on his face as he struggled with my questions. I don't think he had ever been questioned like that before. He seemed genuinely scared. I had a blast. To his credit, he didn't try to backpedal. And he only used the faith copout once.
Lol, nicely done! It's a good thing he wasn't a Catholic priest or something tells me you would have heard about the infallible pope and how they really have ascertained the correct meanings of scriptures. Rolleyes

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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10-07-2013, 10:30 PM
RE: Christians are ready to fight themselves it seems.
(09-07-2013 08:40 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(07-07-2013 04:53 PM)PatThePoltergeist Wrote:  I had a discussion with a Baptist minister last night when he came visiting and I think it is interesting. We came upon the subject of religious beliefs across the world. He made the age old quote of "I know because I know. God has proven to me." To which my response was that a Muslim or Hindu or Jew would say the same and how could he disprove their conviction. The answer was that they were deceived by Satan and listening to the wrong information. Furthermore, the reason they were so deceived was that they had not been taught the correct message. In essence, he says, they have not studied the teaching of Christ. And if they had, they would surely have converted by now.

And so, I posed a very simple question. Do Jews continue the practice of animal sacrifice? He said "I don't know. I suppose they do." So then you are condemning all other religions as being deceived, for not listening, and yet you yourself have not listened to them? How then can you know if you are not the deceived one? His answer to that was faith (of course).

I then moved the conversation to Christianity itself. I said that the Bible teaches that a house divided cannot stand. And yet, I can name a dozen or more denomination and divisions within Christianity. (I heard somewhere that it is actually more like 5,000+) Surely if the Bible were the undeniable truth of God the followers of biblical teaching would be able to ascertain the correct meaning of the word? Again, no answer.

So then sir, you agree that members of your own religion are following incorrect teachings? Yes. And they are too being deceived? Yes. So then they also are not really Christian? Yes. And you would then condemn the members of your own religion just as you would those of another? Yes.

He ended up finding an excuse to leave shortly thereafter. I wish I could show you the look on his face as he struggled with my questions. I don't think he had ever been questioned like that before. He seemed genuinely scared. I had a blast. To his credit, he didn't try to backpedal. And he only used the faith copout once.
Lol, nicely done! It's a good thing he wasn't a Catholic priest or something tells me you would have heard about the infallible pope and how they really have ascertained the correct meanings of scriptures. Rolleyes

I would like to look into Catholicism more. That is one area of Christianity where my experience is lacking. It seems that they always have an answer even if they have to "round off the edges" of the scripture. They seem to mold themselves well to the society norms they contend with while maintaining absolute control. Confession is one thing that interests me. I wonder where a priest gets his authority to mediate from the bible. I swear this crap is more entertaining than porn!

"Your mind is twice a valuable as your body. And your ears are twice as valuable as your mouth. People will pay you based on which you use." - A very smart old lawyer
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11-07-2013, 04:07 AM
RE: Christians are ready to fight themselves it seems.
(07-07-2013 04:53 PM)PatThePoltergeist Wrote:  I had a discussion with a Baptist minister last night when he came visiting and I think it is interesting. We came upon the subject of religious beliefs across the world. He made the age old quote of "I know because I know. God has proven to me." To which my response was that a Muslim or Hindu or Jew would say the same and how could he disprove their conviction. The answer was that they were deceived by Satan and listening to the wrong information. Furthermore, the reason they were so deceived was that they had not been taught the correct message. In essence, he says, they have not studied the teaching of Christ. And if they had, they would surely have converted by now.

And so, I posed a very simple question. Do Jews continue the practice of animal sacrifice? He said "I don't know. I suppose they do." So then you are condemning all other religions as being deceived, for not listening, and yet you yourself have not listened to them? How then can you know if you are not the deceived one? His answer to that was faith (of course).

I then moved the conversation to Christianity itself. I said that the Bible teaches that a house divided cannot stand. And yet, I can name a dozen or more denomination and divisions within Christianity. (I heard somewhere that it is actually more like 5,000+) Surely if the Bible were the undeniable truth of God the followers of biblical teaching would be able to ascertain the correct meaning of the word? Again, no answer.

So then sir, you agree that members of your own religion are following incorrect teachings? Yes. And they are too being deceived? Yes. So then they also are not really Christian? Yes. And you would then condemn the members of your own religion just as you would those of another? Yes.

He ended up finding an excuse to leave shortly thereafter. I wish I could show you the look on his face as he struggled with my questions. I don't think he had ever been questioned like that before. He seemed genuinely scared. I had a blast. To his credit, he didn't try to backpedal. And he only used the faith copout once.
Sounds great! Maybe you poked some holes in his thinking.
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11-07-2013, 08:49 AM
RE: Christians are ready to fight themselves it seems.
Somehow I very highly doubt the conversation had much, if any effect on the priest's behaviour or thoughts. It takes getting to the point that you can ask yourself these questions.

Semper requiremus veritatis.
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11-07-2013, 09:29 AM
RE: Christians are ready to fight themselves it seems.
(10-07-2013 10:30 PM)PatThePoltergeist Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 08:40 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Lol, nicely done! It's a good thing he wasn't a Catholic priest or something tells me you would have heard about the infallible pope and how they really have ascertained the correct meanings of scriptures. Rolleyes

I would like to look into Catholicism more. That is one area of Christianity where my experience is lacking. It seems that they always have an answer even if they have to "round off the edges" of the scripture. They seem to mold themselves well to the society norms they contend with while maintaining absolute control. Confession is one thing that interests me. I wonder where a priest gets his authority to mediate from the bible. I swear this crap is more entertaining than porn!
Yes, and I used to be one... unfortunately.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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11-07-2013, 11:34 AM
RE: Christians are ready to fight themselves it seems.
@FrostyMan: Christians aren't the only ones who can "plant seeds."

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11-07-2013, 01:08 PM
RE: Christians are ready to fight themselves it seems.
(09-07-2013 04:00 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  How is it that otherwise sensible, educated 21st century humans can still believe this utter nonsense?
The thing is that most 21st century humans are neither sensible nor educated. Two thirds of the adult U.S. population do not have college degrees and a high school education does not teach one to think critically. For that matter it is possible to get a college degree without mastering critical thinking.

Being unable to handle math and science is not only acceptable, it is considered admirable. It marks you as "one of the guys". Science majors are labeled "geeks" and "nerds", terms that are intended to be pejorative. In popular media the only scientist who comes across as heroic and admirable is Henry "Indiana" Jones, Jr, PhD.

Let's not forget what the theists are selling, immortality! Most people function on a emotional level 90% of the time. When you tell them that they are not going to live forever, they can't handle it.

Humans arrived on Earth on 22 October 4004 B.C. A few of us are still trying to repair the ship.
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12-07-2013, 05:58 PM
RE: Christians are ready to fight themselves it seems.
Nicely done, Pat!!

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13-07-2013, 11:28 AM
RE: Christians are ready to fight themselves it seems.
Right, the way I like to pose your question about a "house divided" is this: If the Christian god has a message for humanity that he considers important, and he has infinite power and wisdom to deliver this message (not to mention the omniscience to see in advance how his message will be interpreted or misinterpreted), why can't those who agree to follow the "massage" of Christ agree on what the message is?

Then I follow-up: Why is it that I, a mere mortal, am completely capable of doing something your god obviously cannot; deliver a clear and concise message via text?

(Matt Dillahunty generally follows up with, why would such a being even choose text as a way to deliver such an important message.)

"To hate man and worship God seems to be the sum of all creeds." — Robert Ingersoll
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18-07-2013, 04:29 AM
RE: Christians are ready to fight themselves it seems.
(07-07-2013 04:53 PM)PatThePoltergeist Wrote:  I then moved the conversation to Christianity itself. I said that the Bible teaches that a house divided cannot stand. And yet, I can name a dozen or more denomination and divisions within Christianity. (I heard somewhere that it is actually more like 5,000+) Surely if the Bible were the undeniable truth of God the followers of biblical teaching would be able to ascertain the correct meaning of the word? Again, no answer.
Well, the number of Christian denominations is reputedly 30,000 to 38,000, but I'm pretty sure it includes both churches and Churches. If I understand it right, a church in every city block of America can put a made-up sign up the door and become a small denomination with its own interpretation of Bible.

No wonder Christians stop caring about details and go for one great all-condemning ceremonial God of Politics. This famous pastor nails it down pretty well.



(11-07-2013 01:08 PM)f stop Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 04:00 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  How is it that otherwise sensible, educated 21st century humans can still believe this utter nonsense?
The thing is that most 21st century humans are neither sensible nor educated. Two thirds of the adult U.S. population do not have college degrees and a high school education does not teach one to think critically. For that matter it is possible to get a college degree without mastering critical thinking.
Frankly, going over your own worldview and opinions and checking if they make sense requires a good dose of masochism. Many intellectuals of history neglected it. Just as well, if you do it thoroughly, it gets you outcast, depressed and may lead to suicide. Our culture is so based on unthinking nonsense, that being logical and sensible actually makes you worse off, it gets you out of sync with all the benefits that community provides, like friends and stuff.
This is why the kindergarten and elementary schools totally should include critical thinking. Not as curriculum, but as a fun experience, to get the kids addicted to the joy of figuring things out. That changes the culture bottoms up and then the stupid people would be worse off.

(11-07-2013 01:08 PM)f stop Wrote:  Let's not forget what the theists are selling, immortality! Most people function on a emotional level 90% of the time. When you tell them that they are not going to live forever, they can't handle it.
Immortality? I used to have a pirated version, then used open-source for a while and then I just wrote my own O.S. Works fine, I since I got it to run the agnosticism and atheism emulators on the background. Anyway, I have a theory that immortality is not that essential, it's so popular because it comes as a part of the basic software package. You know the people who still use Internet Explorer.
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