RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(20-03-2014 04:18 PM)Drich Wrote:
(19-03-2014 06:24 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote: Drich, you've accused me of not referencing my work.
the accusation is well founded. The following is a sad attempt to try and save face by simply dumping references... The very next topic is a perfect example of that.
Quote:Here is more about Paul's relationship with the Jews, including Jesus' family and disciples. It is well referenced. It touches on the very legitimacy of Pauline Christianity.
How did Paul get on with Yeshua’s disciples and family? Let’s turn to Galatians:
“Then god who had specially chosen me while I was still in my mother’s womb, called me through his grace and chose to reveal his son in me, so that I might preach the Good News about him to the pagans. I did not stop to discuss this with any human being nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were already apostles before me, but I went off to Arabia at once and later went straight back from there to Damascus. Even when after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and stayed with him for fifteen days, I did not see any of the other apostles; I only saw James, the brother of the Lord, and I swear before God that what I have just written is the literal truth” (Gal. 1:15–20, NJB.)
Paul was bragging about the fact that his personal God, a character only he had contact with, was the source of his ideas. That may have impressed naïve people two thousand years ago, but it shouldn’t impress today’s rationalists who can read the accounts of hundreds of people who claim they’ve talked to God.
After having the Son of God revealed to him, Paul more or less snubbed Yeshua’s family and supporters by shooting off to Arabia for three years. If he’d suddenly “seen the light” and become a believer in Yeshua, surely he would have jolted to Jerusalem to meet James, the son of God’s half brother, and Peter and Mary. Surely he would’ve been anxious to meet the other Mary, Yeshua’s mum, the mother of God! Apparently not! Something more important enticed him to Arabia.
Three years later, he visited Jerusalem again, but still didn’t meet Yeshua’s family or disciples, except for James and Peter.
What you did here is simply dump a verse that half way supports your commentary, and just start spouting off whatever it is you 'think.'
This is the perfect example, and sums up the body of your 'work.' what you have left me above, is proof positive that you are completely ignorant of not only what the bible says but you are guilty of ignoring what you do not want to hear.
In the example above you go one and on for a few sentences about how Jesus did not see James, when in fact in verse 19 Paul clears says he did.
(Pay attention to how I pair my statement/Claim with a proper Primary source so that the opposition can not refute my rebuke) t
19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.
This is how you properly quote something, to support what you have said.. When you 'quoted' Gal 1:15-20 you paired your own personal commentary, with an actual a source. The two do not agree with each other. This is a 'reference dump.' A reference dump is based on a 'proof by verbosity' arguement.
I can see it was your hope by just dumping a bunch of empty sources it would silence me... If that was your intent know it is about to go very bad for you.
Quote:The Gospel stories are sadly short of genuine historical facts about Jesus. Things could’ve been different. Paul, who was educated and literate, could’ve saved much of the painstaking guesswork of historians over the last three hundred years ( Jesus’ historicity has only been seriously studied in this time) by jotting down some facts as related by his family and disciples. Paul should have outshone the Gospels and made them redundant. He didn’t. He only wrote about things he thought were important: his own Christ, and his own ethics. I suspect this wasn’t a deliberate omission on Paul’s part; he was obviously totally unaware that people in the future might be interested in Jesus. Interestingly, the author of the epistle of James, who may have been Jesus’ brother, also neglected to document a single fact about Jesus. Neither Paul or James knew Jesus was going to become a hero-figure…because the gospels hadn’t been written yet.
Again empty commentary without source or reference. I am assuming it was your intention to pair this commentary with the source you mention in Gal, 1 and was hoping to build off of that. The problem there is two fold. One, your initial commentary did not match with the conclusions of the source material, and this sumation clearly does not support anything you have made claim to. So all of this can be dismissed with a "Shoo fly.'
Quote:“It was not until fourteen years had passed that I went up to Jerusalem again. I went with Barnabas and took Titus with me. I went there as a result of a revelation, and privately I laid before the leading men the Good News as I proclaim it among the pagans; I did so for fear the course I was adopting or had already adopted would not be allowed. And what happened? Even though Titus who had come with me is a Greek, he was not obliged to be circumcised. The question came up only because some who do not really belong to the brotherhood have furtively crept in to spy on the liberty we enjoy in Jesus Christ, and want to reduce us all to slavery. I was so determined to safeguard for you the true meaning of the Good News, that I refused even out of deference to yield to such people for one moment. As a result, these people who are acknowledged leaders—not that their importance matters much to me, since God has no favorites—these leaders, as I say, had nothing to add to the Good News as I preach it. On the contrary, they recognized I had been commissioned to preach the Good News to the uncircumcised just as Peter had been commissioned to preach it to the circumcised. The same person whose action had made Peter the apostle of the circumcised had given me a similar mission to the pagans. So James, Cephas and John, these leaders, these pillars, shook hands with Barnabas and me as a sign of partnership: we were to go to the pagans and they to the circumcised. The only thing they insisted on was that we should remember to help the poor, as indeed I was anxious to do. When Cephas came to Antioch, however, I opposed him to his face, since he was manifestly in the wrong. His custom had been to eat with the pagans, but after certain friends of James arrived he stopped doing this and kept away from them altogether for fear of the group that insisted on circumcision. The other Jews joined him in this pretence, and even Barnabas felt himself obliged to copy their behavior. When I saw they were not respecting the true meaning of the Good News, I said to Cephas in front of everyone, ‘In spite of being a Jew, you live like the pagans and not like the Jews, so you have no right to make the pagans copy Jewish ways.’” (Gal. 2:1–15 JB.)
Quote:Each sentence reveals a facet of a very strained relationship. Paul was clearly intimidated by James,’ John’s and Peter’s authority. He referred to them as “Pillars,” and “leading men,” and was well aware they mightn’t accept his proclamation of “Good News” as preached to gentiles:
Which further proves what I said in the beginning, that Their is not one way to worship under Christianity.
“I laid before the leading men the Good News as I proclaim it among the pagans; I did so for fear the course I was adopting or had already adopted would not be allowed.”
What’s more, he barely concealed the fact he begrudged their authority:
“Not that their importance matters much to me.” Can anyone imagine him writing that about someone (James) he thought was the half brother of the son of God! He quite clearly regarded them as competition:
“I was so determined to safeguard for you the true meaning of the Good News, that I refused even out of deference to yield to such people for one moment.”
Paul mistrusted them. They didn’t
“belong to the brotherhood.” He accused them of spying on
“the liberty we enjoy in Christ Jesus.” He said they had
“nothing to add to the Good News I preach.” He believed they
“want to reduce us all to slavery.” He thought that the
“good news” he, and only he, preached, entitled people to be part of his brotherhood. He thought he was freeing people from the
“slavery” of the Judaic Law.
Then, he and Peter, allegedly stalwarts of the fledgling Christian movement (who the Vatican claim founded a Christian church in Rome together,) bickered with each other. Paul claimed (probably quite correctly) that Peter didn’t respect his
“good news.” He claimed he publically challenged Peter directly by accusing him of hypocrisy.
What an intriguing snippet of scripture! Paul, the first founder of Christianity, was personally and philosophically at odds with Jesus’ brother and disciples!
Quote:He was angry and frustrated that they’d been undermining him, and he didn’t hold back his vindictive retort. Why the churlish, hostile attitude?
He explains the the orginal 11 were needlessly binding themselves to the Law by making new converts go through the steps of Judaism first then convert to Christianity. Even though they themselves had witnessed a sucessful conversion without having to first go through said conversion (will quote the scripture later on in my response.)
Quote: Weren’t they all preaching the same message?
No, The orginal disciples were interested in first honoring thier Jewish Heritage and then allowing one to convert to Christianity, while Paul preached a message of freedom from the law/Judaism.
Quote:The reason for his antagonism becomes clear when we gain a deeper understanding of Paul’s plan.
Paul the Salesman
I think Paul was a salesman with an ambitious agenda.
Not true Paul was a Pharisee. Some even speculate that he was also a weaver/net/tent maker after He left the temple..
Quote:He hoped to sell his interpretation of Judaism to the Roman world.
As a trained Prarisee He would have been able to do this if this was His goal, but as you pointed out in Galations Paul was seperating Himself from Judaism.
Quote:I think he had a plan to undermine those dangerous messianic Nazarene beliefs that roused rebellion against Roman rule.
Then why did he preach those beliefs and made them accessiable to the Romans? It was the orginal 11 who preached of a salvation that excluded all non jewish people. That anyone who wanted salvation would have to be first become a Jew then a Christian. When Paul was able to preach a doctrine that had anyone (Jew or Gentile) come to God just as they were.
Quote:He wrote to various groups scattered throughout the Empire, and desperately insisted they believe only his theology.
Absolutly not true. For the Jew He acted like and held fast to Jewish tradition to help them understand and ease into freedom from the Law as a means to righteousness, but for the gentile He acted as if He were free from the law so that He could bring salvation to them.
1Cor 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law,[c] that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God,[d] but under law toward Christ[e]), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as[f] weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.
Quote:He was so obsessed with snaring converts that little else in his life mattered. In Romans 15:16, he wrote that Gentiles were an offering he would bring to God.
“That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.”
14 Now I myself am confident concerning you, my brethren, that you also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.[g] 15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written more boldly to you on some points, as reminding you, because of the grace given to me by God, 16 that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. 17 Therefore I have reason to glory in Christ Jesus in the things which pertain to God. 18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient— 19 in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 20 And so I have made it my aim to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build on another man’s foundation, 21 but as it is written:
“To whom He was not announced, they shall see;
And those who have not heard shall understand.”[h]
You know when you read only the snipit you isolated from the actual context you have a valid point. But, when one looks at the whole context of that passage it shows that at best your being intentionally deceptive.
Quote:Most of the people he wrote to were Gentiles (pagans) associated with Jewish synagogues, (“God-fearing Gentiles,”) although he wrote to some Jews in the diaspora too. From Paul’s perspective, his patrons were in desperate need of direction and an authoritative, charismatic leader to look up to. He considered himself just the man. He knew how to win the hearts, minds, and souls of people, as he imagined himself as one of the few god fearers (i.e. Jews) who understood Gentile cultures.
Quote:Paul’s theology probably had a long and carefully thought out gestation. He knew In order to appeal to his customers. he needed a product very different to traditional Judaism, because Judaism required obedience to cumbersome dictates. The Jews believed one had to be circumcised, a painful and embarrassing procedure, not easy to sell to an adult man. They worshipped Yahweh, who is portrayed in Jewish scripture as a thunderous and violent pro-Jewish anti-gentile God. They could only eat kosher food, marry only fellow Jews, and had to stop work on the Sabbath. Jewish heritage and history were regarded as superior, and all Jews were expected to take part in the fasts and feasts celebrating the ancient epic of Israel. Many Jews thought they were one day going to be the masters of the world. Their messianic dreams were an obstacle to the peace Rome imposed on the people of the empire. Paul knew that gentiles found all this inconvenient, irksome and out of touch with reality, so he labeled these Jewish rules and beliefs as a type of “slavery.” He had to jettison the old rules, so he did, by reinventing Judaism so that it was more to the gentile world’s liking.
Again, your commentary/thoughts are not consistant with what Paul taught or preached. In addition to 1cor 9 where Paul tells us to the Jew he acted and work with them under the law (which is in direct contradiction to what you have claimed) Paul also talks about "eating Meat offered to idols."
In romans 14:14-20
Also note the Larger message of Romans 14 is to not allow one's freedoms in Christ obstruct the faith of a weaker brother who need bind himself to the Law.
Followed by 1 cor 8 (the whole chapter) and 1 cor 10:23-33
It seems like EVERYTHING you know and have said about Paul is completely untrue to this point... Almost like you've ONLY read a few websites who's views were slanted against paul, and you've just piled on your own empty thoughts... Otherwise you would have seen at least one or two of the passages I have pointed out that disproves your personal version of the anti Paul/God commentary you have been spouting thus far. So tell me again of that decade long study you immersed yourself with on this subject..
Quote:According to Paul, there was now no need for circumcision or to stop work on the Sabbath. The dietary kosher rules were out; bacon was back on the breakfast menu.
Either your a practice fool who pretends to be something he is not or your a liar.
Paul was not the one who did any of these things. It was Peter
The lift of Dietary restrictions:http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+10&version=NKJV start at verse 9.
The lift of the bann of circumcision was also first instituted by peter in Chapter 10 as well:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
The Jewish converts believed all who were saved through Christ must first be a Jew. (That it what it identifies them as those of the circumcision)
Then as peter preached they were endowed by the Holy Spirit. It was because the Same Holy Spirit indewelled the Apstoles indewelled the GENTILES Peter declared them saved, and had them baptized in the Church.
The change of the Sabbath to the first day of the week was spear headed by Peter as he taught the first church service on sunday. Here are the other reason we worship on sunday as well:
Jesus rose on the first day of the week not the Sabbath: Mk 16:9
All 6 appearances of Jesus happen on two Sundays, none on Sabbath. Mk 16:9; Mt 28:5-9; Lk 24:34; Lk 24:13-15; Lk 24:33,36 + Jn 20:19; Jn 20:26
Christians are recorded assembling three times on Sunday after resurrection and before ascension, never on the Sabbath. Jn 20:19 Jn 20:26 Acts 2:1 (We do not claim that these were worship services, just the early starting point of Sunday gatherings)
The only time Christians are recorded to have assembled together was on a Sunday in Acts 20:7, never does it say the disciples assembled on the Sabbath.
The only day ever mentioned when Christians broke bread was on Sunday: Acts 20:7
Christians are commanded every Sunday to give into a common treasury of the church: 1 Cor 16:1-2
Jesus was declared the Son of God on Sunday: Rom 1:4
Ps 2:7 "Today I have begotten thee" was fulfilled on Sunday when he rose: Acts 13:33
The sign that Jesus was glorified was given on Sunday: Jn 7:39 + Acts 2:1,32
The church officially began on Pentecost Sunday: Acts 2:1
Jesus was crowned king on a Sunday: Acts 2:33-36
The disciples reception of the promise of the Father on Sunday: Acts 1:4-5; 2:1-4
The Holy Spirit first fell upon the apostles on a Sunday: Acts 2:1-4
Salvation first preached by Peter on Sunday: Mt 16:19; Acts 2:1,38,40-41
The Keys to the Kingdom of God were first used on Sunday: Mt 16:19
The great "Triumphal entry" (also called "Palm Sunday") happened on the first day: Luke 13:32
The time between the Lord's resurrection (sheaf waving day) and Pentecost was Sunday to Sunday counting of 50 days. The starting and stopping time was on the 1st day.
First time Jesus worshiped after resurrection was on the first day by Thomas (Jn. 20:26).
The first time we could be born again to a living hope was on a Sunday: 1 Pet. 1:3
The first time Jesus had communion after his resurrection with His disciples, was on a Sunday: (Lk. 24:1, 13, 28-35)
Pentecost was a Sunday - Sunday duration of 50 days. The starting point and stopping point of counting the 50 days was a Sunday - Sunday period!
Quote:He downplayed the importance of the Jewish Temple, and replaced the Jews’ hope for a political messiah of their own with Christ, the spiritual savior of all mankind. The “kingdom of God,” according to Paul, became a place in heaven, not in Israel. He declared Yahweh was such a decent deity he’d sent his own precious son, the Christ, to earth. He alleged gentiles were descendants of Abraham too, and that the centuries-old Jewish Law was a “curse.” All that was now required was faith in his claims about Christ. Voilà! The Christ myth and Christian theology were born.
Again empty commentary with out proper documentation.
Quote:Paul was one of history’s first examples of an ambitious cult leader who, when the rules of the established religion were no longer convenient, simply invented new ones to suit himself. He replaced the so-called “old covenant” of the Jews with his entirely fabricated “new covenant.” He was trying to reinvent Judaism and I think doing his best to dampen down Jewish messianic dreams. He was bending over backwards to infiltrate Judaism with Gentiles and Gentile ideas. He had no idea he was creating an almost entirely new religion, yet that’s precisely what his writings helped do many years later.
Flat out not true. Christ introduced the "New Covenant" himself in the Last supper when He directed the disciples to drink the wine which repersented His blood and eat of the Bread that was to repersent His broken body.
Again How do you not know this stuff? Or is it your hope by the simple verbosity of your reply i would not read your misrepersentation of Scripture/Christianity?
Again Everything to this point has been across the board flat out untrue. It seems you have little to NO Understanding of biblical Christianity.
Quote:To help realize this remodeling of belief, he undermined Yeshua’s family and disciples behind their backs. He was surprised and angry to find himself competing with them for people’s allegiance. They were treading on what he considered his turf. How dare they preach old-fashioned Jewish theology and disrupt his mission to set up communities of believers! Those annoying war-mongering Jews were full of subversive fantasies about a messiah, but God had revealed to him the real Christ, the up-to-date modern Christ! He, not them, was plugging the “good news.” He knew what the newly flexible, expansionist, less violent, less Judaic God expected in these modern, pro-Roman times. He was an educated, savvy, Greek-speaking sophisticate who knew a stack more about selling religion to the subjects of the Empire than the anti-Roman bumpkins from the backwater of Galilee!
Without source material your commentary can be dismissed as wishful thinking.. Shoo fly..
This opinionated, manipulative, over imaginative weazel of a man was the true founder of Christian theology....a religion that has poisoned man's thinking for nearly 2000 years now.
All of this is at BEST is tertiary source material, that MAY only loosly reference secondary source material. The VAST Majority of it is empty conjecture and pointless commentary based on personal 'feeling' and general hatred of christianity..
Cupitt, D. 1979 “The Debate About Christ”. SCM Press Limited. London
Murphy-O’Connor, J. 1996 “Paul A Critical Life”. Oxford University Press. Oxford.
Schonfield, H. 1977 “The Passover Plot”. Futura Publications. London
Schonfield, H. 1969 “Those Incredible Christians”. Bantam. New York.
Stourton, E. 1994 “Paul Of Tarsus”. Hodder and Stoughton. London.
Tabor, J. 2006 “The Jesus Dynasty”. Harper Collins. London.
Cresswell, Peter 2010 “Jesus the Terrorist” O books, Winchester, UK.
That like quoting a Nazi propagandist about Jewish culture and history as a legitmate source material.. You can't be seriously present this hot mess as anything other than a joke right? Or do you really not know any better?
Speaking of an "argument from *verbosity* ... cough cough.
Saul said he got his gospel from no man. He (just like Drich) *hallucinated* his.
"I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ."
Either he meant it, or he did not.
Mark, how DARE you *misreper
sent* Christianity ?
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche