Christians must follow the old testament.
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08-03-2014, 08:42 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
I love the Old Testament.
Jesus did too.
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08-03-2014, 08:50 PM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2014 09:59 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
I love my teddy bear.
Jebus did too. Heart
Unfortunately Saul of Tarsus said, when he cooked up Paulianity, that Christians were freed from the old law, (except when they weren't).

Pussy Cat, your arguments are SO profound, you should become a Christian apologist. Oh wait. You flunked Apolgetics. I forgot.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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08-03-2014, 09:29 PM
Christians must follow the old testament.
(08-03-2014 08:42 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  I love the Old Testament.
Jesus did too.

Must be hard following every part of Leviticus to the letter.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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08-03-2014, 09:57 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(08-03-2014 08:42 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  I love the Old Testament.
Jesus did too.

What's your body count?
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09-03-2014, 04:07 PM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2014 04:11 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
Here's my conclusion at end of chapter on Old Testament (complete with the odd idea from Bucky...thankyou)...

"The authorship of these books is largely unknown, but they’re obviously the output of many very imaginative men. They’re also the products of many “cut and paste” jobs. There was no celestial dictator bellowing instructions from the clouds, just Iron Age bullshitters bolstering their own authority. The passive/aggressive love affair between God and man is fictional, because there’s no god; he’s just a make-believe bully used to frighten simple people.

An omniscient god would have ethical standards that were time- less and beyond question, but the ethics described are deplorable. These books contain obsolete, superstitious, and barbaric beliefs. They’re rife with immorality, jingoistic warmongering, racism, genocide, infanticide, bigotry, cruelty, rape, pedophilia, homophobia, and sexism. They’re clearly only a reflection of primitive people’s prejudices.

Some Christians claim it’s unfair to criticize the bible out of context. Yet in what context is it ok to smash babies onto rocks, rape children, disembowel pregnant women, kill people for sexual indiscre- tions, or commit genocide? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27p DmWOO73c&feature=related).

There’s never been anything new in the Old Testament. No science. No unique knowledge. No advances in navigation, astronomy or medicine. The Hebrews lived no better or longer than Greeks or Romans. They weren’t known as great philosophers, or healers, or lawmakers, or even as especially kind people. (http://www.youtube. com/watch?v=b4F5z8cVux0).

That being said, they shouldn’t be judged by today’s moral and ethical standards. They didn’t know any better. The people were originally from different cultural and religious backgrounds. God’s laws were created and enforced by priests and prophets, petty rulers who needed to use fear as a means to an end. They weren’t the most socially aware, and were focused on forming a powerful and pure Israel, and preserving their own authority. To unite people under one God that all would obey would have required people skills, a heavy hand, and a fertile imagination.

Like all cultures of the time, they had different standards for the treatment of foreigners, women, and children compared to today. In twenty-five hundred years’ time, there’s no doubt some of our laws will appear primitive and barbaric. Some other cultures in ancient times were just as superstitious and backward as the ancient Jews. They did have some positive and admirable traits, such as a strong sense of community and a satisfactory social security system. Some of them obeyed the laws of the Roman Empire, which nullified many of the Laws of Moses. In practice, the people often ignored scripture, just as they do today.

Jewish priests had several centuries to perfect the art of inculcating their teachings into the next generation, and the proto Christians took a leaf out of their book. Christianity launched Europe into the dark ages, and kept it there for hundreds of years, and thereby derailed the social, moral, and scientific progress of much of mankind. (http://www. evolutionary-metaphysics.net/history_of_christianity.html). Without Judaism, there would have been no Christianity, and we would now be far more scientifically and ethically advanced than we are today.

To revere the nasty Yahweh is a dangerous delusion. It’s tragic that churches have taught the Old Testament literally described what to do, and set examples of what to do, in real-life situations. Throughout history many Christians and Islamists have blatantly ignored basic human rights. Consider the millions of real people; men, women and children, who’ve been slaughtered, burned, suppressed, raped, enslaved, or stolen from their families in God’s name, for instance in the crusades, the witch hunts, the Inquisition, the forced conversion of natives, the wars between Catholics and Protestants, and the holocaust. The Old Testament has been used to justify war, support slavery and capital punishment, suppress women and deprive citizens of free choice. It’s true that wicked men do wicked deeds, but if Yahweh had been a tolerant, peace-loving, open-minded character, it’s probable that some of these atrocities wouldn’t have occurred.

“God” has been the greatest inspiration for evil the world has ever known. In terms of duration of influence, lives lost and ruined, Genghis Khan, Hitler and Stalin are minnows compared to old Yahweh.

The Old Testament still taints some peoples’ attitudes toward non- Christians, women, war, science, sexual abuse, and homosexuals. Fundamentalist Christians are morally wrong in claiming that some of it might be divinely inspired, and then reading it with reverence in churches, thereby giving it credibility it doesn’t deserve. The myths, injunctions and poetry should be read for historical interest only, not with the bias of reverence.

It’s time Christianity’s spokespeople publically admit what many every-day Christians already quietly know; that none of it should be read as truth. They won’t do that because they’re too rigid to consider new ideas. How pure, real, and sensible is science in comparison! Science invites questioning; churches usually suppress it. If a scientific theory is proven flawed, it’s discarded and a better one replaces it. Scientists learn from their mistakes, usually no one is offended, and progress continues. No excuses or reinterpretations are needed. Christianity, on the other hand, is stuck with its ancient texts - and humanity has repeatedly suffered the consequences."
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09-03-2014, 05:10 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(08-03-2014 01:18 PM)Charis Wrote:  There is a growing number of Christians who do, in fact, wish to bring the OT back into practice in its entirety. They argue for a theocratic system of government with ALL of the laws in place. I know, a "Theocracy" is a misnomer... I'm only reporting in.

The term I hear for this is "Christian Dominionist" or "Christian Reconstructionist"[1][2][3].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Theology
[2] http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dominionism
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_R...ructionism

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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09-03-2014, 07:20 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(08-03-2014 08:42 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  I love the Old Testament.
Jesus did too.

Over exposure has blunted your objectivity
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09-03-2014, 08:00 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(09-03-2014 05:10 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(08-03-2014 01:18 PM)Charis Wrote:  There is a growing number of Christians who do, in fact, wish to bring the OT back into practice in its entirety. They argue for a theocratic system of government with ALL of the laws in place. I know, a "Theocracy" is a misnomer... I'm only reporting in.

The term I hear for this is "Christian Dominionist" or "Christian Reconstructionist"[1][2][3].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Theology
[2] http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dominionism
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_R...ructionism

Yes, those are the ones. Thank you.
In the circles I've been with, I have had some friends who have gotten very heavily into promoting this. Fundy though I was, even I had to stop talking to them because I found them just scary.
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10-03-2014, 07:13 AM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(08-03-2014 06:57 PM)Miss Meng Wrote:  The Bible contains many wonderful passages, proverbs, psalms and hymns, if only you exercise your free will to look for them.

The Bible contains many terrible passages, painting YHWH as someone who goes out of his way to murder children, if you only exercise your free will to look for them.
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10-03-2014, 11:26 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2014 11:32 AM by Lion IRC.)
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(09-03-2014 04:07 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Here's my conclusion at end of chapter on Old Testament (complete with the odd idea from Bucky...thankyou)...

Which Chapter? Which Book?
...or are you just making a sweeping personal generalization?

Quote:"The authorship of these books is largely unknown, but they’re obviously the output of many very imaginative men.

Which Books? Are you asserting Solomon, David, Moses, Amoz, Samuel, etc. were unknown at the time?
Please don't presume that what is unknown to you was unknown to everyone/anyone.

Quote:They’re also the products of many “cut and paste” jobs. There was no celestial dictator bellowing instructions from the clouds...

Says you. That sounds like wishful thinking on YOUR part.

Quote:...An omniscient god would have ethical standards that were time- less and beyond question, but the ethics described are deplorable.

Your dislike of God is your vested interest. Of course you don't like what YOU don't like.
And, like most anti-bible polemics, yours blames everything 'bad' on God and ignores the 'bad' stuff which God Himself condemns.

Quote:...These books contain obsolete, superstitious, and barbaric beliefs. They’re rife with immorality, jingoistic warmongering, racism, genocide, infanticide, bigotry, cruelty, rape, pedophilia, homophobia, and sexism. They’re clearly only a reflection of primitive people’s prejudices.

Did primitive Stone Age people destroy Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Is God to blame for the infanticide seen in abortion clinics every day? If atheists rule the Internet, which is "rife with immorality," who is to blame for child pornography all over the Internet?
You say the bible has superstitious beliefs but theists are entitled to call the no-God hypothesis which atheists believe, ...just another religion.

Quote:...Some Christians claim it’s unfair to criticize the bible out of context. Yet in what context is it ok to smash babies onto rocks, rape children, disembowel pregnant women, kill people for sexual indiscretions, or commit genocide?

Since you reject the idea of God, you should read the bible from an atheistic anthropological POV and ask yourself why Darwinian evolution doesn't step in and stop humans from having wars.

The Old Testament says 'thou shalt not kill'. What does Darwinian evolution say about abortion, rape, killing your rival offspring, fighting over scarce resources, In group/Out group hostility...?

Is my perfectly natural aversion to homosexual behaviour objectively immoral? Why? Says who? Why do I have to do what some mere primate tells me I "ought" to do? Science can't dictate that to me either! Because you can't get an 'ought' from an 'is' and science wasn't discovered on Mt Sinai.

Quote:There’s never been anything new in the Old Testament. No science. No unique knowledge. No advances in navigation, astronomy or medicine.

Yes there was plenty of revelation of previously unknown information in the OT.
Do you think Israelite hygiene laws kept people healthier? They weren't derived from modern science.

Quote: The Hebrews lived no better or longer than Greeks or Romans. They weren’t known as great philosophers, or healers, or lawmakers, or even as especially kind people.

The Abrahamic religion has out-lasted the Greeks and the Romans.

Quote:...Jewish priests had several centuries to perfect the art of inculcating their teachings into the next generation, and the proto Christians took a leaf out of their book. Christianity launched Europe into the dark ages, and kept it there for hundreds of years, and thereby derailed the social, moral, and scientific progress of much of mankind.

Christianity was not responsible for the Dark Ages.

Quote:...Without Judaism, there would have been no Christianity, and we would now be far more scientifically and ethically advanced than we are today.

Judeo-Christian values are the foundation of Western morality and civilization. And the heavy lifting of the Enlightenment was done by Christians. In fact, all the really useful science was done by theists.

Quote:...To revere the nasty Yahweh is a dangerous delusion.
...It’s tragic that churches have taught the Old Testament literally described what to do,
...Throughout history many Christians and Islamists have blatantly ignored basic human rights.
...Consider the millions of real people; men, women and children, who’ve been slaughtered
...burned, suppressed, raped, enslaved, or stolen from their families in God’s name

Consider the possibilities for even greater human misery when selfish people make themselves gods and live like atheists, as if there's no tomorrow.

Ironically, you are doing what YOU WANT and launching an attack on God by blaming Him for the actions of people who THEMSELVES use God as the justification for doing what THEY WANT.

You are using the bible selectively to justify your personal agenda - which is to attack people who selectively use the bible to further THEIR agenda.

Moreover, you are attacking with a straw argument against people who lived long ago. By your own admission, you are addressing folk who lived in the Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Greco-Roman empires and somehow trying to burden 21st Century Christians with responsibility for ancient events.

If I think Communism/Marxism was a pivotal cause of modern anti-theism, would it be fair for me to then accuse atheists here of supporting what State-sponsored Atheism did to millions of human beings in China, Russia, North Korea, Cambodia.....?

Quote:...the crusades, the witch hunts, the Inquisition, the forced conversion of natives, the wars between Catholics and Protestants, and the holocaust.

Blah blah blah.... Yeah, we get it already!
(Well, not entirely. You are making an argument against the Old Testament. How does the Old Testament benefit the anti-Jewish Nazis who wanted to exterminate Eternal Israel?)

Quote:...The Old Testament has been used to justify war, support slavery and capital punishment, suppress women and deprive citizens of free choice.

Yeah, if there was no Old Testament people would really struggle to find anything to fight about. They would have to find some really nebulous excuse for war such as territorial imperatives, or xenophobia, or economic scarcity, or greed, or the desire to repress other people's religious freedom. Again, you are blaming the bible for wars which is not much different to humans using random bible verses as camouflage to justify their hatred.

Quote:...“God” has been the greatest inspiration for evil the world has ever known. In terms of duration of influence, lives lost and ruined, Genghis Khan, Hitler and Stalin are minnows compared to old Yahweh.


Humans (homo sapiens) have 50,000+ years of ubiquitous theism - an innate moral fixation with the transcendent and the divine. Our concern for the God conclusion and our origins/destiny have kept the human spirit alive and thus kept us strong and aspirational. So far, without atheism we haven't collectively decayed into nihilism.

God, and thoughts of God, have been central to who we are as a species.

Quote:The Old Testament still taints some peoples’ attitudes toward non- Christians, women, war, science, sexual abuse, and homosexuals.

"Some peoples' attitudes" toward women are rooted in their selfishness DNA and you ought not judge them because they were born that way. "Some peoples' attitudes" towards science are morally vacuous and they think creating atom bombs is clever physics. "Some peoples' attitudes" to homosexuality include trying to get kids (like boy scouts) involved from an early age.

Quote:Fundamentalist Christians are morally wrong in claiming that..."

Look who is trying to their own assert moral facts while denying others the opportunity to do likewise.

Quote:...It’s time Christianity’s spokespeople publically admit what many every-day Christians already quietly know; that none of it should be read as truth.

You have sock puppet ventriloquism going on there with the sock on your right hand saying... yes we every-day Christians know none of the OT should be read as truth". Meanwhile the sock puppet on your left hand is the OT bogey man preaching Mark Fultons version of the bible.


Quote:...They won’t do that because they’re too rigid to consider new ideas.

No, they won't do it because, unlike your strawman, they aren't your puppets and believe it or not, they actually agree with and LIKE the ideas they hold. Your inability to get real living people to agree with atheism is not automatically because they are too dumb or inflexible.

Quote:...How pure, real, and sensible is science in comparison! [

You say that as if no scientist in the history of the world ever went to church, or a mosque, or a synagogue.

Quote:...Science invites questioning; churches usually suppress it.

If science invites questioning, (which it should,) how come intelligent design theory can't be discussed in the science class at school? If science invites questioning, why aren't we allowed to question the ethics of stem cell research?

Quote:...If a scientific theory is proven flawed, it’s discarded and a better one replaces it. Scientists learn from their mistakes, usually no one is offended, and progress continues. No excuses or reinterpretations are needed. Christianity, on the other hand, is stuck with its ancient texts - and humanity has repeatedly suffered the consequences."

What does that tell you about science when mistakes are made and then later need to be corrected, whereas the bible still says the universe had a beginning, humans are 'higher' than animals, extra-terrestrial dimensions of space/time exist, Jesus rose from the dead...
Facts - scientific facts - shouldn't change. Empirical evidence shouldn't change. Science shouldn't need to change Pluto from a planet to a non-planet. If the 4000 year old bible states something as a fact, it doesn't get changed by opinion polls or scientific zeitgeist.
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