Christians must follow the old testament.
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10-03-2014, 11:36 AM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
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It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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10-03-2014, 11:38 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2014 04:13 PM by docskeptic.)
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(10-03-2014 11:26 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  Yes there was plenty of revelation of previously unknown information in the OT.
Do you think Israelite hygiene laws kept people healthier? They weren't derived from modern science.

Facts - scientific facts - shouldn't change. Empirical evidence shouldn't change. Science shouldn't need to change Pluto from a planet to a non-planet. If the 4000 year old bible states something as a fact, it doesn't get changed by opinion polls or scientific zeitgeist.

Lion,
I'm intrigued. What does IRC stand for?

Please elaborate on the hygiene laws.

Please elaborate on Bible "facts". When the Bible calls the bat "a bird", is that a fact? When it says that some insects have 4 legs, is that a fact? Scientific "zeitgeist" has certainly corrected at least those 2 facts.

Doc
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10-03-2014, 11:44 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2014 11:50 AM by rampant.a.i..)
Christians must follow the old testament.
Did Lion just tacitly admit he TL;DR'd the Bible?

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"Facts shouldn't change" is a statement of clear and profound ignorance of the scientific method.

Looks like Lion's entire worldview boils down to "Someone told me The Bible is an infallible source of truth, and I hear science makes new discoveries that change previously accepted facts: I'll go with this book I haven't read is infallible."

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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10-03-2014, 11:49 AM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(10-03-2014 11:44 AM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  TL;DR

Too long. Didn't read.
Relax pal. I wasn't aiming at anyone with a low attention span.
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10-03-2014, 11:52 AM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2014 12:03 PM by rampant.a.i..)
Christians must follow the old testament.
(10-03-2014 11:49 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(10-03-2014 11:44 AM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  TL;DR

Too long. Didn't read.
Relax pal. I wasn't aiming at anyone with a low attention span.

Coming from someone who bases his entire view of reality on a book he clearly hasn't read, that's hilarious.

You also claim "Christianity didn't cause the Dark Ages": Where exactly are you getting your information?

"If science invites questioning, why can't Intelligent Design be taught in schools?"

Because it's not a scientific theory, ID is scientifically disproven religious propaganda. Explain to me why we can't we teach Evolution in church?

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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10-03-2014, 11:54 AM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(08-03-2014 06:57 PM)Miss Meng Wrote:  The Bible contains many wonderful passages, proverbs, psalms and hymns, if only you exercise your free will to look for them.

~ Miss Meng
So we should cherry-pick as much as you do? No thanks. Dodgy
Words have meaning. ALL of them...

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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10-03-2014, 11:56 AM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(08-03-2014 08:42 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  I love the Old Testament.
Jesus did too.
You haven't read it, have you... Drinking Beverage

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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10-03-2014, 03:53 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
Lion, why would we evolve to stop war? Wouldn't the most effective at war be most likely to survive? I'm not sure you're getting this survival of the fittest thing.

Also, you ask what Darwin says about rape. Remember our conversation last week on what the Bible says on it? The answer is that it says nothing explicit unless talking about virgins. Even then, it can't stop itself from being extremely creepy.

Be careful when making comparisons on morality here. It's not like we are saying evolution is guided by an intelligent entity, either; yet, you think the Bible is, and it can't explicitly forbid rape without creepy qualifiers.
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10-03-2014, 10:44 PM (This post was last modified: 10-03-2014 10:47 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(10-03-2014 11:26 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(09-03-2014 04:07 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Here's my conclusion at end of chapter on Old Testament (complete with the odd idea from Bucky...thankyou)...

Which Chapter? Which Book?
...or are you just making a sweeping personal generalization?

Quote:"The authorship of these books is largely unknown, but they’re obviously the output of many very imaginative men.

Which Books? Are you asserting Solomon, David, Moses, Amoz, Samuel, etc. were unknown at the time?
Please don't presume that what is unknown to you was unknown to everyone/anyone.

Quote:They’re also the products of many “cut and paste” jobs. There was no celestial dictator bellowing instructions from the clouds...

Says you. That sounds like wishful thinking on YOUR part.

Quote:...An omniscient god would have ethical standards that were time- less and beyond question, but the ethics described are deplorable.

Your dislike of God is your vested interest. Of course you don't like what YOU don't like.
And, like most anti-bible polemics, yours blames everything 'bad' on God and ignores the 'bad' stuff which God Himself condemns.

Quote:...These books contain obsolete, superstitious, and barbaric beliefs. They’re rife with immorality, jingoistic warmongering, racism, genocide, infanticide, bigotry, cruelty, rape, pedophilia, homophobia, and sexism. They’re clearly only a reflection of primitive people’s prejudices.

Did primitive Stone Age people destroy Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Is God to blame for the infanticide seen in abortion clinics every day? If atheists rule the Internet, which is "rife with immorality," who is to blame for child pornography all over the Internet?
You say the bible has superstitious beliefs but theists are entitled to call the no-God hypothesis which atheists believe, ...just another religion.

Quote:...Some Christians claim it’s unfair to criticize the bible out of context. Yet in what context is it ok to smash babies onto rocks, rape children, disembowel pregnant women, kill people for sexual indiscretions, or commit genocide?

Since you reject the idea of God, you should read the bible from an atheistic anthropological POV and ask yourself why Darwinian evolution doesn't step in and stop humans from having wars.

The Old Testament says 'thou shalt not kill'. What does Darwinian evolution say about abortion, rape, killing your rival offspring, fighting over scarce resources, In group/Out group hostility...?

Is my perfectly natural aversion to homosexual behaviour objectively immoral? Why? Says who? Why do I have to do what some mere primate tells me I "ought" to do? Science can't dictate that to me either! Because you can't get an 'ought' from an 'is' and science wasn't discovered on Mt Sinai.

Quote:There’s never been anything new in the Old Testament. No science. No unique knowledge. No advances in navigation, astronomy or medicine.

Yes there was plenty of revelation of previously unknown information in the OT.
Do you think Israelite hygiene laws kept people healthier? They weren't derived from modern science.

Quote: The Hebrews lived no better or longer than Greeks or Romans. They weren’t known as great philosophers, or healers, or lawmakers, or even as especially kind people.

The Abrahamic religion has out-lasted the Greeks and the Romans.

Quote:...Jewish priests had several centuries to perfect the art of inculcating their teachings into the next generation, and the proto Christians took a leaf out of their book. Christianity launched Europe into the dark ages, and kept it there for hundreds of years, and thereby derailed the social, moral, and scientific progress of much of mankind.

Christianity was not responsible for the Dark Ages.

Quote:...Without Judaism, there would have been no Christianity, and we would now be far more scientifically and ethically advanced than we are today.

Judeo-Christian values are the foundation of Western morality and civilization. And the heavy lifting of the Enlightenment was done by Christians. In fact, all the really useful science was done by theists.

Quote:...To revere the nasty Yahweh is a dangerous delusion.
...It’s tragic that churches have taught the Old Testament literally described what to do,
...Throughout history many Christians and Islamists have blatantly ignored basic human rights.
...Consider the millions of real people; men, women and children, who’ve been slaughtered
...burned, suppressed, raped, enslaved, or stolen from their families in God’s name

Consider the possibilities for even greater human misery when selfish people make themselves gods and live like atheists, as if there's no tomorrow.

Ironically, you are doing what YOU WANT and launching an attack on God by blaming Him for the actions of people who THEMSELVES use God as the justification for doing what THEY WANT.

You are using the bible selectively to justify your personal agenda - which is to attack people who selectively use the bible to further THEIR agenda.

Moreover, you are attacking with a straw argument against people who lived long ago. By your own admission, you are addressing folk who lived in the Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Greco-Roman empires and somehow trying to burden 21st Century Christians with responsibility for ancient events.

If I think Communism/Marxism was a pivotal cause of modern anti-theism, would it be fair for me to then accuse atheists here of supporting what State-sponsored Atheism did to millions of human beings in China, Russia, North Korea, Cambodia.....?

Quote:...the crusades, the witch hunts, the Inquisition, the forced conversion of natives, the wars between Catholics and Protestants, and the holocaust.

Blah blah blah.... Yeah, we get it already!
(Well, not entirely. You are making an argument against the Old Testament. How does the Old Testament benefit the anti-Jewish Nazis who wanted to exterminate Eternal Israel?)

Quote:...The Old Testament has been used to justify war, support slavery and capital punishment, suppress women and deprive citizens of free choice.

Yeah, if there was no Old Testament people would really struggle to find anything to fight about. They would have to find some really nebulous excuse for war such as territorial imperatives, or xenophobia, or economic scarcity, or greed, or the desire to repress other people's religious freedom. Again, you are blaming the bible for wars which is not much different to humans using random bible verses as camouflage to justify their hatred.

Quote:...“God” has been the greatest inspiration for evil the world has ever known. In terms of duration of influence, lives lost and ruined, Genghis Khan, Hitler and Stalin are minnows compared to old Yahweh.


Humans (homo sapiens) have 50,000+ years of ubiquitous theism - an innate moral fixation with the transcendent and the divine. Our concern for the God conclusion and our origins/destiny have kept the human spirit alive and thus kept us strong and aspirational. So far, without atheism we haven't collectively decayed into nihilism.

God, and thoughts of God, have been central to who we are as a species.

Quote:The Old Testament still taints some peoples’ attitudes toward non- Christians, women, war, science, sexual abuse, and homosexuals.

"Some peoples' attitudes" toward women are rooted in their selfishness DNA and you ought not judge them because they were born that way. "Some peoples' attitudes" towards science are morally vacuous and they think creating atom bombs is clever physics. "Some peoples' attitudes" to homosexuality include trying to get kids (like boy scouts) involved from an early age.

Quote:Fundamentalist Christians are morally wrong in claiming that..."

Look who is trying to their own assert moral facts while denying others the opportunity to do likewise.

Quote:...It’s time Christianity’s spokespeople publically admit what many every-day Christians already quietly know; that none of it should be read as truth.

You have sock puppet ventriloquism going on there with the sock on your right hand saying... yes we every-day Christians know none of the OT should be read as truth". Meanwhile the sock puppet on your left hand is the OT bogey man preaching Mark Fultons version of the bible.


Quote:...They won’t do that because they’re too rigid to consider new ideas.

No, they won't do it because, unlike your strawman, they aren't your puppets and believe it or not, they actually agree with and LIKE the ideas they hold. Your inability to get real living people to agree with atheism is not automatically because they are too dumb or inflexible.

Quote:...How pure, real, and sensible is science in comparison! [

You say that as if no scientist in the history of the world ever went to church, or a mosque, or a synagogue.

Quote:...Science invites questioning; churches usually suppress it.

If science invites questioning, (which it should,) how come intelligent design theory can't be discussed in the science class at school? If science invites questioning, why aren't we allowed to question the ethics of stem cell research?

Quote:...If a scientific theory is proven flawed, it’s discarded and a better one replaces it. Scientists learn from their mistakes, usually no one is offended, and progress continues. No excuses or reinterpretations are needed. Christianity, on the other hand, is stuck with its ancient texts - and humanity has repeatedly suffered the consequences."

What does that tell you about science when mistakes are made and then later need to be corrected, whereas the bible still says the universe had a beginning, humans are 'higher' than animals, extra-terrestrial dimensions of space/time exist, Jesus rose from the dead...
Facts - scientific facts - shouldn't change. Empirical evidence shouldn't change. Science shouldn't need to change Pluto from a planet to a non-planet. If the 4000 year old bible states something as a fact, it doesn't get changed by opinion polls or scientific zeitgeist.

"Which Chapter? Which Book?
...or are you just making a sweeping personal generalisation?"

I know a really cool dude who has written a book called "Get over Christianity by Understanding It" He let me proof read it. Chapter 14 is about the content of the Old Testament.

RE
"Which Books? Are you asserting Solomon, David, Moses, Amoz, Samuel, etc. were unknown at the time? Please don't presume that what is unknown to you was unknown to everyone/anyone"

Moses is a fiction.

There's no evidence the others you mention, if they existed, wrote anything in the babble. Check your facts.

RE
"Says you. That sounds like wishful thinking on YOUR part."
Look up the "documentary hypothesis"

RE
"Of course you don't like what YOU don't like."
Thanks for this pearl of wisdom.

RE
"Is my perfectly natural aversion to homosexual behaviour objectively immoral?"

Yes.

RE
"You say that as if no scientist in the history of the world ever went to church, or a mosque, or a synagogue."

No scientist reads 2000 year old texts on science as if they're infallible.

RE
"how come intelligent design theory can't be discussed in the science class at school?"

It can be discussed, but not taught, because it's not science.

RE
"Look who is trying to their own assert moral facts while denying others the opportunity to do likewise."

I can't deny anyone the opportunity to express their opinion and don't want to.

RE
" why aren't we allowed to question the ethics of stem cell research? "

I don't know who your "we" is, and I've no idea what you're talking about. You can question whatever you want.

RE
""Some peoples' attitudes" toward women are rooted in their selfishness DNA and you ought not judge them because they were born that way. "Some peoples' attitudes" towards science are morally vacuous and they think creating atom bombs is clever physics. "Some peoples' attitudes" to homosexuality include trying to get kids (like boy scouts) involved from an early age."

You need to do better than this on the Internet. The reader can barely follow your trail of thought. Please respect your readers by expressing yourself better.

RE
"If the 4000 year old bible states something as a fact, it doesn't get changed by opinion polls or scientific zeitgeist."

The Bible is not 4000 years old. The oldest writings in the Bible were written at most 3000 years ago now. I don't have the same reverence for the Bible as you. I prefer to think for myself. Ancient ramblings about a fictional God are interesting only from the historical perspective. They cannot contain absolute truths. Science is far superior. I believe that for the same reasons you believe it about the Koran.
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10-03-2014, 11:23 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(08-03-2014 06:57 PM)Miss Meng Wrote:  The Bible contains many wonderful passages, proverbs, psalms and hymns, if only you exercise your free will to look for them.

~ Miss Meng

Like...

Ezekiel 23:19-21
King James Version (KJV)
19 Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.

20 For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

21 Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.

I can fap to that!

Smile

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