Christians must follow the old testament.
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18-03-2014, 09:02 AM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(18-03-2014 06:38 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(18-03-2014 02:53 AM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  From my understanding, the NT is just OT 2.0. Jesus does many miracles that Moses does. Not exactly, but it has to do with water and does the same amount.

There are some similarities (and you'd expect this, with Christianity piggy-backing on Judaism), but they really are different religions.

Judaism deals a lot more with the real world. God makes threats to actually kill people (not send them to hell), and supposedly does many times. He also promises them decisive military victories when they behave themselves. YHWH was basically the war god of their culture who promised to keep them safe so long as they listened. People don't go to heaven or hell in the OT; when a person dies, they go to Sheol, which basically means grave.

Christianity got into the the whole cosmic battle between good and evil, salvation, immortal souls, and heaven and hell. So, it upped the stakes in that if you pissed off God, rather than him just killing you (and maybe your children!), he'll have you tortured for infinity years. Of course, this punishment system is non-falsifiable, and it sort of has to be. I imagine a lot of what drove this change is that people realized that the righteous often suffered and the wicked often prospered, so they wanted to believe there was some cosmic form of justice being carried out (just world hypothesis, and all).

Judaism + Greek Mystery Religions = Christianity

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18-03-2014, 11:51 AM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
Agreed. Paganism and Judaism is essentially Christianity.

I really want to know if the person who wrote it was Greek or Jewish. Its written in Greek but why combine it with Judaism?

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18-03-2014, 12:02 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
Early christianity coopted lots of practices and holidays from the paganis of the time for two reasons, that I recall. One was to make the feel comfortable in the new religion and the other was to keep them from double dipping.
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18-03-2014, 12:06 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
Also, I am not too sure on whenever Christians should follow the OT… I hear people saying they do and some saying they do not. But the ones that say they don't still don't agree with gay marriage. Obviously not all of the, but they still find a problem with it. Why?

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18-03-2014, 12:53 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(18-03-2014 11:51 AM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  Agreed. Paganism and Judaism is essentially Christianity.

I really want to know if the person who wrote it was Greek or Jewish. Its written in Greek but why combine it with Judaism?

Both. There's not just one writer. Paul got the ball rolling with his Epistles. So far as I know, he was a gentile, and most of his writings were geared toward converting gentiles.

Of the four Gospels in the Bible, I think Matthew is the one that focuses most heavily on adding details regarding Judaism. He included details not in the other Gospels, such as fulfilling various prophecies so he'd be able to convince Jews that Jesus was the real Messiah. This wasn't a priority for the other three Gospels.


(18-03-2014 12:06 PM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  Also, I am not too sure on whenever Christians should follow the OT… I hear people saying they do and some saying they do not. But the ones that say they don't still don't agree with gay marriage. Obviously not all of the, but they still find a problem with it. Why?

I'm having a hard time following this post. Are you asking why Christians are against gay marriage if they don't site the OT as their reason? Paul condemned homosexuality more than once in the NT.
  • The OT lists male-homosexuality as being an abomination (the same word used for describing eating shellfish).
  • The NT lumps homosexuals (male or female) in with a much larger group of people who "won't inherit the kingdom of God".
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18-03-2014, 01:00 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
On homosexuality…


That I did not know, thanks for clearing it up. Can you send me the lines if you have time?

On the bible…

I do realize there are multiple authors, Paul being one of them. But the majority of the authors are unknown and I think that its fair.

Im still in the research phase of learning about the bible, but did Paul write what he wrote in Greek or Hebrew? Why were Greeks writing the bible? Wasn't the belief in Titans and Olympians still around going strong?

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18-03-2014, 01:42 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(18-03-2014 01:00 PM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  On homosexuality…


That I did not know, thanks for clearing it up. Can you send me the lines if you have time?

Here are a handful, and is not exhaustive:

Old Testament:

Leviticus 18:22
Quote:22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

Leviticus 20:13
Quote:13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.


New Testament:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Quote:9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


[a]1 Corinthians 6:9 The words men who have sex with men translate two Greek words that refer to the passive and active participants in homosexual acts.

Romans 1:26-27
Quote:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.



(18-03-2014 01:00 PM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  On the bible…

I do realize there are multiple authors, Paul being one of them. But the majority of the authors are unknown and I think that its fair.

Im still in the research phase of learning about the bible, but did Paul write what he wrote in Greek or Hebrew? Why were Greeks writing the bible? Wasn't the belief in Titans and Olympians still around going strong?

I think Paul wrote it in Greek. I thought I heard it's because it was the "intellectual" language of the time, but I'm not sure if that's accurate or if it was the reason. There were a lot of religions back then, rising and falling. I guess it wasn't uncommon for a salvation cult to spring up around a deity normally concerned with something else (fishing or agriculture, for example). I know Richard Carrier believes that Christianity is the salvation cult that sprang up from Judaism, changing YHWH from a war god to a salvation god.
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18-03-2014, 01:47 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(18-03-2014 12:53 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(18-03-2014 11:51 AM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  Agreed. Paganism and Judaism is essentially Christianity.

I really want to know if the person who wrote it was Greek or Jewish. Its written in Greek but why combine it with Judaism?

Both. There's not just one writer. Paul got the ball rolling with his Epistles. So far as I know, he was a gentile, and most of his writings were geared toward converting gentiles.

Of the four Gospels in the Bible, I think Matthew is the one that focuses most heavily on adding details regarding Judaism. He included details not in the other Gospels, such as fulfilling various prophecies so he'd be able to convince Jews that Jesus was the real Messiah. This wasn't a priority for the other three Gospels.



(18-03-2014 12:06 PM)Just Another Atheist Wrote:  Also, I am not too sure on whenever Christians should follow the OT… I hear people saying they do and some saying they do not. But the ones that say they don't still don't agree with gay marriage. Obviously not all of the, but they still find a problem with it. Why?

I'm having a hard time following this post. Are you asking why Christians are against gay marriage if they don't site the OT as their reason? Paul condemned homosexuality more than once in the NT.
  • The OT lists male-homosexuality as being an abomination (the same word used for describing eating shellfish).
  • The NT lumps homosexuals (male or female) in with a much larger group of people who "won't inherit the kingdom of God".

So what about masturbation? I hear a lot of hate towards that.

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18-03-2014, 02:10 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
The common thought about masturbation is that it falls into the broader category of "fornication," which is generally considered as sexual activity of any flavor that is not done with one's spouse. There is a split opinion on this, though. Some will say something to the effect of it being just a biological act and not ACTUAL fornication if you are not thinking of someone (from the passage that says that to look with someone with lust is to commit adultery with them in your heart) and that to masturbate could be used as a prevention against physical and mental fornication. Others will say that all forms of sexual behavior and thought that are not regarding one's spouse fall under the category of fornication, and that even the stray unintentional fleeting thoughts must be repented of and were part of the sins that Jesus had to suffer for.
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18-03-2014, 02:30 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
Ahaha, yes, because when somebody is masturbating they are thinking of the morning news. That sounds like the ILLUSION of an option.


Robby: Thanks for the verses! Much appreciated! I knew there were many in the OT, but did not know of the ones in the NT.
As for Carrier, I'm not sure on the existence on Jesus yet and still have much to learn on it. But for this, ill assume he is real and play their game. Why are their liberal Christians who believe homosexuality is okay despite everything in the bible being against it?

“Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.

-Christopher Hitchens
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