Christians must follow the old testament.
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18-03-2014, 03:54 PM
Smile RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(08-03-2014 12:08 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Christians today try to disconnect them selves from the old testament. The old testament is the first part of the bible, and contains laws that should be followed. I will explain 3 reasons Christians today don't want to follow the old testament and 3 reasons why they should.

There are three reasons Christians try to get rid of following the old testament laws are:

1. They are trying to make Christianity look like the most peaceful of all the religions.. The old testament contains laws that are extremely violent and stupid. For example here is a verse for an example Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13.

2. They are already accustomed to the lives they live. Christians get a kick out of doing things like working on the Sabbath or eating a bacon wraped catfish with fried shrimp. They want to still live their lives they way they do.

3. It is so that they can make christianity seem more logical. The laws like stoning people for working on the Sabbath would be reasonable to somebody who follows the law, but to no one else and because christians have to make more sense then the other religions that have to make sure they don't follow such a ridiculous law.

However Christians don't know that they should follow the old testament.

1. Jesus is said to have told people that the old testament should still be followed. For example this verse "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." Matthew 5:17. So this would mean that the old testament still applies.

2. The fact that those who don't follow the old testament will be called least in heaven. Sure you could see this as not bad but would you rather have a old car or a sports car? Well think of least in heaven as a old car and heaven for those who follow the old laws as a sports car?

3. The fact that many things from the old testament christians follow now. For example the ten commandments are found only in the old testament. Another thing Christians follow is masturbation is evil. However christians will use old testament laws to justify this. So they them selves will use old testament laws they like in a attempt to justify their motives, but will ignore laws they don't like.
It can be claimed by Christians that the O.T. was flawed in many ways, reflecting callous claims made by confused individuals.
Some early church leaders claimed Jesus's teachings came from the real god and not Yahweh, who they thought to be a much lesser one. (Check out Marcionism)
While claims as to what Jesus said, written decades after he died, are contradictory, not all Christians are literalists.Some only take on what seems more rational to them.
From what can be gleaned from the N.T, at least in some aspects, Jesus seems rather more humane and spiritual (albeit confused) than old Jehovah God.
He did condemn those stoning Mary Magdalene, where Yahveh would have probably provided bigger rocks. Also, it is claimed he said it was worthy to do good works on the Sabbath.
Some new testament teachings seem quite wise in the long term, though of course, there is a need to utilize such with consideration and caution.
As for masturbation, the only vague message relates to Onan spilling his seed.(Onanism)...............
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18-03-2014, 05:32 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(14-03-2014 06:15 AM)Drich Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 03:47 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Drich...you don't have a good understanding of the history. I challenge you to stop firing bullets and digest the following. It may be a bit long for you, so you might accuse me of being verbose, but it's a topic that addresses the very legitimacy of your (Pauline) Christianity. (Well done with your spelling and grammar btw...I mean it....but "tenament" isn't a word...I think you meant "tenet")

Here’s the historical reality. Devout Jews (such as the family and followers of Jesus) despised Paul and rejected his ramblings. The idea that their mysterious, perfect, one and only God could be incarnated in a Christ was unthinkable to them. They couldn’t imagine that their God could die, or that a Christ’s death somehow addressed man’s sins. For them the kingdom of God promised in scripture never was in a hypothetical heaven, but was to be on earth in the here and now. Their messiah wasn’t some savior of souls, but a leader of the Jews who heralded in a glorious age in which Israel triumphed and pagans recognized the glory of their god, Yahweh. He was to build the temple, (Ezek. 37:26–28) gather all Jews back to Israel, (Isa. 43:5–6) and,
importantly, bring an end to Roman rule. He was supposed to end all exploitation, corruption, famine, disease, and war. Paul’s fictional Christ had done none of this!

Paul claimed:
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Gal. 2;16, KJV) and “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law” (Gal. 3:13, KJV) and “Before faith came, we were allowed no freedom by the Law; we were being looked after till faith was revealed. The law was to be our guardian until the Christ came and we could be justified by faith. Now that that time has come we are no longer under that guardian, and you are, all of you, sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. All baptized in Christ, you have all clothed yourself in Christ, and there are no more distinctions between Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female, but all of you are one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal. 3:23–28, NJB.)

Jews didn’t buy this. They wouldn’t be Jewish if they did. They believed - and still do - that the way to find favor with God was to obey “the Law” - that is, the Torah, as allegedly taught by Moses. There’s no mention in their scriptures about an end to the covenant God made with their ancestors on Mount Sinai. Jews regarded the Law almost like a gift from their God, not a curse, or an imposition on freedom. They knew there was no such thing as a “new covenant.” Why would they give up centuries of tradition to believe a renegade like Paul?

Imagine a hypothetical modern analogy; a fanatic from a small cult, such as the “branch davidians,” grabbing a microphone during a Catholic mass at the Vatican, and proclaiming that David Koresh was Jesus’ son, and Koresh’s teachings replaced the sermon on the mount. Paul was behaving like a deluded fanatic.

Paul had an ambivalent attitude to Jewish scripture, which varied with the audience he was writing to. At times he used it to justify his own ideas, such as when writing to “Hellenized” Jews in the diaspora. Yet when writing to Gentiles he claimed large parts of it were redundant.

Yeshua had died over a decade before Paul appeared on the scene, and I think would have been perplexed and offended by the idea that his death could somehow give Gentiles a ticket to heaven. He hated the Romans, (they did nail him to a cross!) and never imagined that Yahweh, whom he never regarded as his temporal sire, would grant them a place in heaven!

Jesus said,
“Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish them but complete them. I tell you solemnly, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved” (Matt. 5:17–18 JB.) Paul and Jesus contradicted each other! So much for biblical infallibility! (http://www.essene.org/Yahowshua_or_Paul.htm).

Many people today insist that Jesus came to do away with the Jewish Law. They’re not considering Jesus’ words, but Paul’s (or Paul’s proponents like Luther or Calvin.)

Most Jews believed God dwelt in the temple, in Jerusalem, Israel’s capital. Paul made a cavalier dismissal of the importance of Israel by suggesting that all believers become a temple for God:
“And that is what we are—the temple of the living God” (2 Cor. 6:15, NJB) and “Didn’t you realize that you were God’s Temple” (1 Cor. 3:16 JB.) He was trying to expand God’s seat of power out of Jerusalem and into the whole known world. Yet for most first century Jews this downplayed the importance of the temple, the geographical pivot of Judaism.

Jews thought they were Abraham’s descendants and God’s special people. Yet Paul claimed:
“Those therefore who rely on faith receive the same blessing as Abraham, the man of faith.” (Gal. 3:9, NJB,) and “Merely by belonging to Christ you are the posterity of Abraham, the heirs he was promised” (Gal. 3:29, NJB.) He wanted believing Gentiles to consider themselves God’s chosen, so that they too were special, and weaken the patriotic fervor of Jews by downplaying their exclusivity.

Throughout Paul’s travels, he was initially welcome in synagogues because he masqueraded as a traditional Jew, but after Jews heard what he had to say, he was rejected, sometimes even beaten and pelted with rocks; a repetitive pattern portrayed in Acts. They liked to think they were a chosen race, superior in all ways, and in God’s eyes, to the pagan hordes. These Jews must have imagined Paul was upsetting their God, and the whole Jewish community would suffer as a consequence. Is it any wonder they physically attacked him? Jesus’ own people were attacking Paul because he was promoting Christian ideas, a fact that should raise eyebrows in today’s churches.

In the decades Paul was preaching, the Nazarenes were expanding into a significant force under James’ leadership in Jerusalem. They also enjoyed a strong membership among Jews throughout the empire. They definitely didn’t preach the divinity of Christ, nor intend to start a new religion. Paul, when he wasn’t pretending to be one of them, considered them competitors. He got very upset when he encountered rival missionaries, who were probably Nazarene, and complained bitterly about them hijacking “his” converts. He cursed them, using the undeniable truth of his own gospel as justification:
“I am astonished at the promptness with which you have turned away from the one who called you and have decided to follow a differ- ent version of the Good News. Not that there can be more than one Good News; it is merely that some trouble makers among you want to change the Good News of Christ; and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one that we have already preached to you, whether it be ourselves or an angel from heaven, he is condemned” (Gal. 1:6–9, NJB.) He sounds like an upset child whose best friend has gone off to play with someone else. It’s ironic that he was accusing his adversaries of the very thing he was guilty of - preaching a fabrication! He clearly undermined Yeshua’s family and disciples behind their backs. He was surprised and angry to find himself competing with them for people’s allegiance. They were treading on what he considered his turf. How dare they preach old-fashioned Jewish theology and disrupt his mission to set up communities of believers! Those annoying war-mongering Jews promoted subversive fantasies about a messiah, but today’s God had revealed to him the real Christ, the up-to-date modern Christ! He, not them, was plugging the “good news.” He claimed he knew what the flexible, expansionist, less violent, less Judaic God expected in these modern, pro-Roman times. He thought of himself as an educated, savvy sophisticate who knew a stack more about selling religion than the old fashioned anti-Roman bumpkins from Jerusalem!

The two faced Paul probably tried to ingratiate himself with the Nazarenes when in their company, but they became implacably opposed to him, as verified by the verbal confrontation described in Galatians chapter two, and the adamantly anti-Pauline assertions in James’ letter.

Paul knew he wasn’t a popular figure amongst traditional Jews. In his letter to the Romans he expressed his nervousness that the Nazarenes in Jerusalem might reject him, which, if the story in Acts is true, is precisely what happened. James summoned Paul to Jerusalem when it became apparent Paul was preaching against the Torah, and sent him to the temple to be purified and prove he was still a true Jew, (see Acts 21, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts 21&version=KJV) which led to Paul’s so called arrest and eventual transportation to Rome. James, Jesus’ brother, effectively terminated Paul’s missionary career!

When Paul was forced to admit that he was a Roman citizen, his cover was well and truly blown. Nazarenes were implacably opposed to Rome. According to Acts, Roman authorities had to dedicate considerable resources (500 soldiers) to protect him from angry Jews. They were looking after one of their own. That’s about the same number of soldiers who arrested Jesus.

Paul wasn’t deterred. He kept writing letters from Rome.

His modern-day reputation as an honest evangelist, and the implication he taught Yeshua’s message, have no foundation, yet they’ve become part of Christian tradition, largely because of Acts, written some time in the early second century. Paul’s legitimacy must have lacked credibility, so the author had Jesus’ ghost appear to Paul on the road to Damascus, which was obviously a fiction, as was the story of Paul becoming best friends with Jesus’ disciples. The author even tried to shore up Paul’s status by having him (and his handkerchief) perform a number of miracles. Yet Paul failed to mention Jesus’ ghost or his own miracles; impossible omissions if they were true. Paul revealed many personality traits in his letters, but genuine modesty definitely wasn’t one of them.

Again history of Christianity has nothing to do with it's intended practice. If you look to an elementry/Sunday school understanding of Christianity you would note we have the freedom to practice it anyway we wish.. This Fact is Spelled out in the bible even to the determent of the ideas of the 'mainstream Christians' who believe their specific brand is the only way to 'truly' practice it.

(Oh and I did spend 2 years studying the 1st century church and Judaism of that period.) While I do not need to march out my pedagree everytime I have the oppertunity I do know that the majority of what you have to say about 1st century history is at best a sloppy sumation of an anti God/Anti Paul website. as I've seen your tired arguement (in better form) before. It's all conjecture and speculation without source material.

"history of Christianity has nothing to do with it's intended practice."

What UTTER NONSENSE!. Think about what you've just written. If it's true, there's no monotheism, no heaven and hell, no Jesus, no Paul, no lecturing people based on biblical bullshit.

"the majority of what you have to say about 1st century history is at best a sloppy sumation of an anti God/Anti Paul website"
MY writing is the result of about seven years investigation into the real history. It is not lifted from any website. Google any fraction of it ...and you will find only one author ....me. As to it being "sloppy" you need to say why, because your subjective opinion means little.

You are the "sloppy" one around here....you can't even be bothered using spellcheck or correcting your grammar....
"Again" should be "Again,"
"it's" should be "its"
"Fact is Spelled" should be "fact is spelled"
"determent" is not a word
"pedagree" should be "pedigree"
"oppertunity" should be "opportunity"
"sumation" should be "summation"
"as" should be "As"
"arguement"should be "argument"

I doubt you've ever spent two years studying anything, because a scholarly person learns to spell by osmosis.

What is more, you haven't addressed any of my arguments, you've just made dismissive generalisations. You're a lazy, uneducated , loudmouth sod.
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18-03-2014, 07:34 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(18-03-2014 01:47 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  So what about masturbation? I hear a lot of hate towards that.

Charis pretty much hit the nail on the head. A bit more detailed response can be seen in Matthew 5:27-30
Prudish Bible Wrote:Adultery

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[a] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.


[a]Exodus 20:14

So, people often assume these two parts put together prohibit masturbation (in the usual sense). Thinking about a woman lustfully is a sin, and presumably, masturbating while doing so could be your hand causing you to sin. Maybe.

It's sort of a grey area, but the Abrahamic religions have never been too open about sex, so people tend to frown on it. In public. Then they go home, close their doors, and touch themselves. Like everyone else.

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18-03-2014, 07:50 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(18-03-2014 07:34 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(18-03-2014 01:47 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  So what about masturbation? I hear a lot of hate towards that.

Charis pretty much hit the nail on the head. A bit more detailed response can be seen in Matthew 5:27-30
Prudish Bible Wrote:Adultery

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[a] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.


[a]Exodus 20:14

So, people often assume these two parts put together prohibit masturbation (in the usual sense). Thinking about a woman lustfully is a sin, and presumably, masturbating while doing so could be your hand causing you to sin. Maybe.

It's sort of a grey area, but the Abrahamic religions have never been too open about sex, so people tend to frown on it. In public. Then they go home, close their doors, and touch themselves. Like everyone else.

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So what laws do Christians follow that is only in the old testament

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] ♪僕は恐怖の一定した状態に住んで、不幸、逃すもう?僕は、それはもう痛いときも気づかないと
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18-03-2014, 09:47 PM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
I don't recall following any laws that were only in the OT, but that might just be my (blissfully) faded memory.
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19-03-2014, 03:15 AM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(10-03-2014 07:13 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(08-03-2014 06:57 PM)Miss Meng Wrote:  The Bible contains many wonderful passages, proverbs, psalms and hymns, if only you exercise your free will to look for them.

The Bible contains many terrible passages, painting YHWH as someone who goes out of his way to murder children, if you only exercise your free will to look for them.

Beautiful!Bowing
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19-03-2014, 03:47 AM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
The OT is the Foundation of Christianity

The Gospels’ authors borrowed the beliefs that there was only one all-knowing, all-powerful God, and that man’s purpose was to serve the creator and impress him with how he treated his neighbor. They also sourced many ideas from the Septuagint when inventing Jesus’ biography, such as the concept of the messiah, which they adopted and adapted. I contend that Christianity was originally created to undermine Judaism. Without the Jewish script, there would be no Christianity as we know it.

Despite this, most Christians regard the Old Testament as a mere prologue to the New, largely because Paul, the fathers of the church, and others watered down the importance of Judaism. Yet can today’s true believer, the purist who believes in the word of God, brush aside the Old Testament? The Jewish authors thought their rules were to last forever:
“You are to observe the statutes and ritual, the law and the commandments which he has given you in writing and to which you are always to conform” (2 Kings 17:37, NJB.)

In the New Testament, the author of James, who may well have been Jesus’ brother, wrote:
“You see, anyone who keeps the whole of the Law but trips up on a single point, is still guilty of breaking it all” (James 2:10, NJB.)

Jesus, Christianity’s supreme source of wisdom, said
“Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete them" (Matt. 5:17, NJB.)
“It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one little stroke to drop out of the Law” (Luke 16:17, NJB.) When teaching in the temple, he said,
“Did not Moses give you the Law? And yet not one of you keeps the Law!” (John 7:19, NJB.) He also said
“scripture cannot be set aside” (John 10:35, NJB.) Jesus clearly taught people to obey the Jewish Law.

“The Law” consisted of five books: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Compared to the ancient versions in the Dead Sea Scrolls they’re remarkably unchanged since Jesus’ time. They contain instructions to kill adulterers, female fornicators, homosexuals and witches. Permission is given to rape women and girls and smash babies onto rocks. If a man raped a Jewish virgin, he must buy her from her father and marry her. If a girl didn’t scream loud enough when being raped, she was to be killed. One’s daughter could be sold as a sex slave. If a girl couldn’t produce the bloody sheets from her wedding night she was to be stoned. People were encouraged to own slaves, and could beat them to death, as long as they did it slowly. Welcome to the reality of Old Testament Law!

“Oh no! This isn’t what Jesus would have taught” I hear Christians protest. Yet Jews like Jesus saw scripture as the law. He didn’t reinvent God’s doctrine:
“Jesus answered them: ‘My teaching is not from myself: it comes from the one who sent me’” (John 7:16, NJB.)
“The Father and I are one” (John 10:30, NJB.) Jesus considered himself a chip off the old block. He often threatened violence and condemned people to hell. This aggressive attitude was copied from the scripture that was regularly read to Jews.

Most modern churches try to claim the Jewish law is no longer relevant. Paul is the main man in the bible who undermined the authority of Jewish scripture:
“If that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no room for a second one to replace it” (Heb. 8:7, NJB.) Note the circularity of his argument.
“Since, as we see it, a person is justified by faith and not by doing what the Law tells him to do” (Rom. 3:28, NJB.)
“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law” (Gal. 3:13, NJB.) He directly and unambiguously contradicted Jesus. This is a fundamental issue that raises its head time and time again in the bible: the differences between Yeshua’s Judaism and Paul’s Christianity. There’s an obvious explanation. Paul never met Yeshua. (As discussed, the “road to Damascus” story is a myth.) He knew nothing about Jesus the preacher because he wrote long before Gospel authors invented Jesus’ injunctions.

There are some other quotations, from Jesus, in which he contradicted himself by denigrating a literal interpretation of the Law. There were too many authors putting words in Jesus’ mouth.

To claim that Christianity isn't based on Judaism is RIDICULOUS.
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19-03-2014, 05:38 AM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(18-03-2014 07:50 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  So what laws do Christians follow that is only in the old testament

"Christians" is a rather nebulous group. I can't think of any laws off the top of my head that are only found in the OT that they follow.

If you narrow that down to fundamentalists, you might find a few. I don't know if the NT has any prohibitions on sorcery, but I know the OT does. It was largely because of this that my ex-step dad burnt all of my He Men into a solid lump of plastic and all my my mother's drawing of unicorns and fairies to ash. There are actual Christians who see any sort of fantasy or mythology (other than their own, of courseWink) as a sin.

I'm pretty sure there are a handful of Christians that eat Kosher, and that would technically be following an OT-only law, but that's not very wide-spread practice among Christians.
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19-03-2014, 06:28 AM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
(14-03-2014 07:49 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(14-03-2014 06:15 AM)Drich Wrote:  ... as I've seen your tired arguement (in better form) before. It's all conjecture and speculation without source material.

It's okay if you don't agree with him.

But the sources he has based his opinions on are the same freaking texts themselves. He has precisely the same source material Christians do.

So there's that.

But I guess we shouldn't expect you of all people to understand what a "source" is, Mr "there's no source for Augustus".
Then 'HE' should have no problem quoting them.

The Index: A/S/K Ask Seek Knock as outlined by Luke 11:5-13
Ot Old testament
Nt New testament
H/S Holy Spirit

If you want to ask me a question feel free to Pm me or E/M me. I will not speak of it to anyone.
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19-03-2014, 07:09 AM
RE: Christians must follow the old testament.
Drinking Beverage
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