Christians wanting to hijack Easter
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21-01-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: Christians wanting to hijack Easter
(21-01-2016 12:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(21-01-2016 12:44 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  When did it become YOUR holiday?
Since I celebrate it each year with chocolate and holidays. My govt represents me. They set a national holiday, it becomes my holiday.

You mean they set a religious holiday as a national holiday?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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21-01-2016, 01:03 PM
RE: Christians wanting to hijack Easter
(21-01-2016 12:38 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(21-01-2016 12:29 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  It is a formula based on the moon (sort of), but that formula was devised by the Catholic church many centuries ago -- well, actually, I think they took it from the Jews, who use a similar method to determine the date of Passover. Hint: Passover and Easter are linked, and they are both definitely religious in origin. The fact that secular people observe a holiday doesn't take away its religious origin. Secular people celebrate Christmas, too, but to deny that it is a religious holiday is just silly (I think Chas already pointed that out).
The origins of Easter is the celebration of the goddess Estre. To deny that is just silly.
I would say that there was a time where NZ was a Christian country, but now we are secular.
It is beside the point what the origins are. I am only interested in what is now.
Now, NZ is secular.
I don't see why we look to the Christians to tell us when to have OUR holidays.

Well, we've been over this many times already in this thread, and you are not going to change your mind, so I will leave it be. It is, however, a religious holiday, whatever your reasons may be for celebrating it. And if anyone in this thread is being intransigent, it is you, not Chas. I will say no more.
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21-01-2016, 01:12 PM
RE: Christians wanting to hijack Easter
I guess I will say one thing more. The church isn't dictating anything to the New Zealand government. If they change the way they calculate the date for Easter, all they are saying is "we (the church) are now going to celebrate Easter on this date instead of that date". That does not obligate any specific government to follow suit. The governments can continue to do whatever they like.

This reminds me of the Catholic church getting all upset about the government allowing gay marriage. The government already allows all kinds of marriages that are not sanctioned by the church (such as divorced people remarrying, or Catholics marrying non-Catholics). What's one more type? The government isn't saying the churches have to recognize or sanction gay marriage, just that they (the government) are going to. Same concept. Separation of church and state, you know?

If the church changes the date of Easter and the New Zealand government goes along with that change, I would argue that they are then showing themselves not to be a totally secular government. If they were really all that secular, they wouldn't care what the church does. And neither would you.
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21-01-2016, 02:58 PM
RE: Christians wanting to hijack Easter
(21-01-2016 01:03 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  It is, however, a religious holiday, whatever your reasons may be for celebrating it. And if anyone in this thread is being intransigent, it is you, not Chas. I will say no more.
I'm not sure what you are on about.
Perhaps you haven't understood my issues.

My issues are regarding a secular country seeking guidance from a specific religious organisation when setting a national holiday.

What do you mean when you refer to changing my mind? Do you think I ought to now hold the belief that it is appropriate for a Christian organisation to tell the government of a secular country when to set the date for it's holidays?
Do you think I should change my mind and agree that if the Christians decide that the formula for calculating the day ought to be different then my secular government should change the date to accommodate for those Christians.

That I should change my mind and just be happy. Because Chas thinks it is "silly" to want my secular country to be independent from the Christian churches.???
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21-01-2016, 03:15 PM
RE: Christians wanting to hijack Easter
(21-01-2016 01:12 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  The church isn't dictating anything to the New Zealand government. If they change the way they calculate the date for Easter, all they are saying is "we (the church) are now going to celebrate Easter on this date instead of that date". That does not obligate any specific government to follow suit. The governments can continue to do whatever they like.
If only that were true.
I think it would be great if the Christians decided to celebrate Easter on one set of days e.g. April 1st-April4th but instead the country officially recognises it as March 25th-March 28th.
It would clearly show that we are a secular country.

But if the Govt decided to move the way it is calculated in order to pander to the whims of Christians then the message that they are presenting is that although many of our laws are "secular" we are in fact a "Christian" country.

I don't want NZ to be a Christian country, I want NZ to be a secular country. There are many non Christian people that celebrate Easter, why should we change based on the Christian's direction? The Christians don't own Easter and they don't rule the govt and they don't determine when our national holidays are to be.
Or at least, they shouldn't be able to do this. I am not happy that the current state is that my secular govt gets confirmation from the Catholics regarding the Easter dates. Easter isn't a Christian holiday, it is a pagan holiday.

Now I will really get pissed if the Christians decide to change the holiday name to "ressurection day" and if the government then change the holiday name accordingly.

At what point do we truly become a secular country?

(21-01-2016 01:12 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  If the church changes the date of Easter and the New Zealand government goes along with that change, I would argue that they are then showing themselves not to be a totally secular government. If they were really all that secular, they wouldn't care what the church does. And neither would you.
Yes, that's my argument right there.
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21-01-2016, 03:36 PM
RE: Christians wanting to hijack Easter
(21-01-2016 03:15 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(21-01-2016 01:12 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  If the church changes the date of Easter and the New Zealand government goes along with that change, I would argue that they are then showing themselves not to be a totally secular government. If they were really all that secular, they wouldn't care what the church does. And neither would you.
Yes, that's my argument right there.

Then you should be mad at the government, not the church.

However, let's say this does happen, and the government does go along with it. What exactly is the problem? The way it is now, you get a holiday somewhere during late March or April, with the exact weekend varying from year to year. If they make the change that they're proposing, you would still get the same holiday, still within that same general period. The only difference would be that it's the same weekend every year (yes, it would still be on a weekend). Why is that any worse? Why would you even care? If you're only upset because the church is involved, that is absolutely irrational. The holiday only exists in the first place because of the church! Yes, I know it's a "pagan holiday", but that died out many centuries ago. Nobody would still be celebrating it if the Catholic church hadn't co-opted it way back then. If you're still mad about that, there's no help for you. But you appear to be mad about this trivial re-assigning of dates. It's not going to change anything that matters. You're not losing any holidays. What's the beef? Is it vitally important to you that the holiday be on a different weekend each year?
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21-01-2016, 03:45 PM
RE: Christians wanting to hijack Easter
(21-01-2016 03:15 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I am not happy that the current state is that my secular govt gets confirmation from the Catholics regarding the Easter dates. Easter isn't a Christian holiday, it is a pagan holiday.

A pagan spring festival. You live in the southern hemisphere...

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21-01-2016, 03:51 PM
RE: Christians wanting to hijack Easter
(21-01-2016 03:45 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(21-01-2016 03:15 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I am not happy that the current state is that my secular govt gets confirmation from the Catholics regarding the Easter dates. Easter isn't a Christian holiday, it is a pagan holiday.

A pagan spring festival. You live in the southern hemisphere...

Making it a chocolate fall festival!
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21-01-2016, 03:51 PM
RE: Christians wanting to hijack Easter
Let me give an example of something that goes the other way. We got an email a few months back from one of our customers, informing us about a whole bunch of days on which they were going to be closed. It so happens that the management of this company is Jewish, and the days in question were Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and the week-long festival of Succoth (and maybe some other days surrounding those). It looked like a whole bunch of days to me. Now, none of those are national holidays (except maybe in Israel), but if the U.S. government wanted to declare them national holidays, I would have no complaint whatsoever! I would absolutely love to have all those extra days off. If they also wanted to give us the holy month of Ramadan (Islamic) off, I would be all over that, too. A holiday is a holiday. I don't care whether the dates are determined by a religious group, or which religious group that is. Easter and Christmas have been Christian holidays all along (despite some pagan elements in both of them). So what? Why get upset about it now, simply because the date might change in an insignificant way?
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21-01-2016, 03:55 PM
RE: Christians wanting to hijack Easter
(21-01-2016 03:36 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(21-01-2016 03:15 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Yes, that's my argument right there.

Then you should be mad at the government, not the church.
I'm not mad at the church, why do you assume this?

I've clearly stated that my beef is that the NZ government shouldn't align with the church.

(21-01-2016 03:36 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  However, let's say this does happen, and the government does go along with it. What exactly is the problem?
I've already covered this. I do wish people would listen.
I want NZ to show that it is a secular country. I don't see why my country would change merely because a few Christian organisations make a decision to change.

When change happens at the government level, it impacts all NZers, not just the Christians. Why should non Christians have to pander to the whims of the Christians within this secular country?

If it is the Christians who "own" Easter then perhaps as a secular country we shouldn't be officially celebrating Easter.

The Christians take the holiday far too seriously. The mythical roots are really just an excuse to celebrate something. The dates are convenient due to it being perhaps a last hoorah to the warm weather before we buckle down for the cold. The chocolate tradition adds to the fun of the holiday.
From a secular perspective the timing seems acceptable, the joy of chocolate seems acceptable. I have no problems with Easter as a holiday. If Christians want to celebrate the death of their "Jesus" character at around that time, I have no problems with this either.

If Christians want to change their dates, I still have no problems with this. BUT, I see no reason for a secular country to align their holiday dates with the changes that the Christians want. "Resurrection day" has nothing to do with Easter. NZ celebrate Easter.


(21-01-2016 03:36 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  The way it is now, you get a holiday somewhere during late March or April, with the exact weekend varying from year to year.
Sure

(21-01-2016 03:36 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  If they make the change that they're proposing, you would still get the same holiday, still within that same general period.
Perhaps, but I don't see why a secular country would align with Christian desires and ignore non Christians. Perhaps we ought to officially recognise Ramadan or Diwali or Chinese New Year with national holidays as well?
The message that is sent out would be that our government gives Christianity a place above the rest.
(21-01-2016 03:36 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  The only difference would be that it's the same weekend every year (yes, it would still be on a weekend).
Who knows what the Christians will decide to do? They may fix the date, they may rename the holiday, who knows?

(21-01-2016 03:36 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Why is that any worse? Why would you even care? If you're only upset because the church is involved, that is absolutely irrational.
I am an atheist living in a secular country. I want my government to prove that we are indeed secular, I want them to cut ties with Christian churches. I don't want to be forced to change based on the whims of Christians.
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