Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
17-07-2015, 08:18 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(17-07-2015 08:13 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-07-2015 07:42 PM)Godexists Wrote:  how do you possibly know ? answer. You dont know.

Nope. Neuro-science knows a lot that you (obviously) have never been exposed to. You REALLY have no science AT ALL do you ?

Answer : google Scientific American, and 'consciousness'
He DOES know. You obviously know next to nothing. But thanks for making a fool of yourself, and demonstrating your ignorance with every post.

Thumbsup Yes

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t1370-co...sciousness

http://thebrainbank.scienceblog.com/2013...rspective/

What is consciousness? A scientist’s perspective.

We all know what consciousness is. We can tell when we’re awake, when we’re thinking, when we’re pondering the universe, but can anyone really explain the nature of this perception? Or even what separates conscious thought from subconscious thought?


What is consciousness?

Imagine the difference between the image of an apple to your brain and a digital camera. The raw image is the same whether on a camera screen or in your head. The camera treats each pixel independently and doesn’t recognise an object. Your brain, however, will combine parts of the image to identify an object, that it is an apple and that it is food. Here, the camera can be seen as ‘unconscious’ and the brain as ‘conscious’.

A human brain contains roughly 86 billion neurons whereas a mouse brain contains only 75 million (over a thousand times less). A person might then argue that it is because our brains are bigger and contain more nerve cells that we can form more complex thoughts. While this may hold to a certain extent, it still doesn’t really explain how consciousness arises.

If you cut off a bit of your cerebellum (don’t try this at home) then you may walk a bit lopsided, but you would still be able to form conscious thoughts. If however, you decided to cut off a bit of your cortex, the outer-most folds of the brain, your conscious thought would be severely diminished and your life drastically impacted. So it seems that the number of brain cells we have doesn’t necessarily relate to conscious thought.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-07-2015, 08:20 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(17-07-2015 08:16 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(17-07-2015 02:56 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  just keep thinking Miller-Urey is legitimate. Even the "radicals" at the National Institutes of Health and the Royal Society.

If its legitimate, why have we not created life yet ??

(17-07-2015 01:05 PM)Godexists Wrote:  Now that's just silly. It's not antimatter. Both are produced. Of course! Right-handed simply doesn't link up with left-handed, that's all. Being all one-handed supports life evolving from a small, localized early group. If we found both types of life on earth, it would mean that proto-life evolved independently in two spots on the planet. It'd be more shocking than what we do find. Which is exactly what one would expect, if one were honest.

http://labquimica.files.wordpress.com/20...alidad.pdf
The origin of the homochirality of amino acids is still an unsolved issue. There must have been a definite process to ensure that the sequence-based mechanism functioned in the RNA world. Future experiments will provide insights regarding the basis using which this mystery can be solved.


http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/...bial_World
Enantiomers are molecules that are mirror-images of each other. Today, amino acids and sugars exist in only one enantiomeric form in most biological systems on earth. This homochirality remains one of the greatest unsolved mysteries to scientists.


http://www.cnrs.fr/Cnrspresse/n386/html/en386a11.htm
However, the question of the origin of biological homochirality remains as yet unanswered.


http://origins.harvard.edu/event/physica...ochirality
left and right-handed molecules of a compound will form in equal amounts (a racemic mixture) when we synthesize them in the laboratory in the absence of some type of directing template.


http://www.teknoscienze.com/Articles/Chi...qvM17Qucvk

Several mechanisms have been proposed for elucidating the origins of the chirality of organic compounds, such as circularly polarized light (CPL) (3) and quartz (4); however, a suitable amplification process for chirality is required to reach single-handedness of biological compounds (biological homochirality)

(17-07-2015 01:05 PM)Godexists Wrote:  What?! That doesn't even make sense. Life hands its information down to the next generation.

what is its origin ?

Darwins doubt, pg.268

Intelligent agents, due to their rationality and consciousness, have demonstrated the power to produce specified or functional information in the form of linear sequence-specific arrangements of characters. Digital and alphabetic forms of information routinely arise from intelligent agents. A computer user who traces the information on a screen back to its source invariably comes to a mind— a software engineer or programmer. The information in a book or inscription ultimately derives from a writer or scribe. Our experience-based knowledge of information flow confirms that systems with large amounts of specified or functional information invariably originate from an intelligent source. The generation of functional information is "habitually associated with conscious activity." Our uniform experience confirms this obvious truth. It also suggests, therefore, that intelligent design meets the key "causal adequacy" requirement of a good historical scientific explanation. Certainly, intelligence is a "cause now in operation" capable of generating functional or specified information in a digital form. As I write this, my mind is generating specified information. Intelligent agents generate information in the form of software code, ancient inscriptions, books, encrypted military codes, and much else. And since we know of no "presently acting" materialistic cause that also generates large amounts14 of specified information (especially in a digital or alphabetic form), only intelligent design meets the causal adequacy requirement of a historical scientific explanation. In other words, our uniform experience of cause and effect shows that intelligent design is the only known cause of the origin of large amounts of functionally specified digital information. It follows that the great infusion of such information in the Cambrian explosion points decisively to an intelligent cause.

Intelligent design stands alone as an explanation for the origin of genetic information for another reason: purposive agents have just those necessary powers that natural selection lacks as a condition of its causal adequacy. We have seen that natural selection lacks the ability to generate novel information precisely because it can only act after new functional information has arisen. Natural selection can favor new proteins and genes, but only after they perform some function (influencing reproductive output). The job of generating new functional genes, proteins, and systems of proteins therefore falls entirely to random mutations. Yet without functional criteria to guide a search through the space of possible sequences, random variation is probabilistically doomed. What is needed is not just a source of variation (i.e., the freedom to search a space of possibilities) or a mode of selection that can operate after the fact of a successful search, but instead a means of selection that (a) operates during a search—before success—and that (b) is guided by information about or knowledge of a functional target.

Quote:Also nonsense. The immune system functions to protect from invading organisms. The early organisms wouldn't have had to worry about that until they got complex enough to get invaded.

haha. How do you know they were not complex enough ? Laugh out loadBowing


Quote:As the "evolutionary arms race" of invaders vs. invaded got going, they developed ever-increasing methods of attack and defense. Again, exactly what we'd expect to find. There is absolutely nothing in evolution that says it all had to be there as-is, today... that's a red herring and a strawman argument in one.

perfect example of pseudo science.

(17-07-2015 01:05 PM)Godexists Wrote:  5.The sugar found in the backbone of both DNA and RNA, ribose, has been particularly problematic, as the most prebiotically plausible chemical reaction schemes have typically yielded only a small amount of ribose mixed with a diverse assortment of other sugar molecules.

Quote:*sih* Same answer as the right/left handedness. Why does it shock you that out of several options, life went only one of those ways, and since all life is descended from common ancestry, we kept that way?

you seem not to be aware that to make these ribose sugars, its a extremely complex process, right ? The proposed prebiotic pathway leading to this sugar, the formose reaction, is especially problematic.

Consider ribose. The proposed prebiotic pathway leading to this sugar, the formose reaction, is especially problematic.

Formose reaction

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formose_reaction

The formose reaction is of great importance to the question of the origin of life as it explains part of the path from simple formaldehyde to complex sugars like ribose and from there to RNA. In one experiment simulating early Earth conditions, pentoses formed from mixtures of formaldehyde, glyceraldehyde, and borate minerals such as colemanite (Ca2B6O115H2O) or kernite (Na2B4O7).[4] Both formaldehyde and glycolaldehyde have been observed spectroscopically in outer space, making the formose reaction of particular interest to the field of astrobiology.

Aldol reaction

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldol_reaction

The aldol reaction is a means of forming carbon–carbon bonds in organic chemistry.Discovered independently by Charles-Adolphe Wurtz and Alexander Borodin in 1872, the reaction combines two carbonyl compounds (the original experiments used aldehydes) to form a new β-hydroxy carbonyl compound. These products are known as aldols, from the aldehyde + alcohol, a structural motif seen in many of the products. Aldol structural units are found in many important molecules, whether naturally occurring or synthetic. For example, the aldol reaction has been used in the large-scale production of the commodity chemical pentaerythritol[11] and the synthesis of the heart disease drug Lipitor (atorvastatin, calcium salt).

and aldose-ketose isomerizations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobry_de_B...sformation

In carbohydrate chemistry, the Lobry de Bruyn–van Ekenstein transformation also known as the Lobry de Bruyn–Alberda–van Ekenstein transformation is the base or acid catalyzed transformation of an aldose into the ketose isomer or vice versa, with a tautomeric enediol as reaction intermediate. Ketoses may be transformed into 3-ketoses, etcetera. The enediol is also an intermediate for the epimerization of an aldose or ketose.

Quote:Dr. Catharine Neish at the Goddard Spaceflight Center[/url], because you clearly understand this stuff better than she does. Rolleyes

i maybe don't. But the author, John Michael Fischer , certainly does.

Quote:What? Then what the fuck is a glycoprotein?

LOL.... you have really no clue what you argue about, isnt it ??

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t2071-ca...d-proteins

Glycoprotein 8

Glycoproteins are proteins that contain oligosaccharide chains (glycans) covalently attached to polypeptide side-chains. The carbohydrate is attached to the protein in a cotranslational or posttranslational modification. This process is known as glycosylation. Secreted extracellular proteins are often glycosylated. In proteins that have segments extending extracellularly, the extracellular segments are also glycosylated. Glycoproteins are often important integral membrane proteins, where they play a role in cell–cell interactions.

Quote:Again, this is one you're going to have to explain to the scientists at NASA, because you're clearly better-informed than they are. Rolleyes

Laugh out loadLaugh out load

The hydrothermal-vent theory

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t1394-th...ent-theory

http://www.csj.jp/journals/bcsj/bc-cont/...10349.html

Submarine hydrothermal systems (SHSs) have been thought of as a suitable environment for the origin of life subsequent to the abiotic synthesis of organic molecules. However, it has been pointed out that bioorganic molecules, such as amino acids, are easily degraded at a high temperature, and thus not likely to survive for the next step of chemical evolution in a SHS environment.


http://physwww.mcmaster.ca/~higgsp/3D03/...ghTemp.pdf

The problem with monomers is bad enough,but it is worse with polymers,e.g.,RNA and DNA (Lindahl1993),whose stability in the absence of efficient repair enzymes is too low to maintain genetic integrity iyperthermophiles. RNA and DNA are clearly too unstable to exist in a hot prebiotic environment.The existence of an RNA world with ribose appears to be incompatible with the idea of a hot origin of life.

Quote:Are we seeing a picture, here? Will you admit that you've presented not only poor data, but what amounts to gobbletygook, designed to fool people who don't know science with some pseudoscientific gobbletygook that only sounds good to the ignorant seeking comfort for their ignorance?

comedy gold. haha Bowing

You really should stop doing your Fundie dance with that copy-pasta crap.
You've demonstrated you can't think for yourself.

But again, thanks for proving you have not a clue what you're talking about.
Did Jebus send you here to convert us, or to show us how stupid the Fundie iD people are ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-07-2015, 08:23 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(17-07-2015 08:18 PM)Godexists Wrote:  We all know what consciousness is. We can tell when we’re awake, when we’re thinking, when we’re pondering the universe, but can anyone really explain the nature of this perception? Or even what separates conscious thought from subconscious thought?


What is consciousness?

We do know. YOU obviously don't, as you are an ignoramus.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...i-excerpt/

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-07-2015, 08:23 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(17-07-2015 07:42 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(17-07-2015 04:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  The mind is an emergent feature of a complex brain. It comprises electro-chemical patterns and processes.

how do you possibly know ? answer. You dont know.

Know? That is what all the research results (y'know - evidence) indicates.

Your ignorance is not an argument - it's just a detriment. Read a book.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-07-2015, 08:25 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
But of course magic creation makes perfect sense.
Magic can cover any possible scenarios because you can just make it up as you go along.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like pablo's post
17-07-2015, 08:31 PM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2015 08:38 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(17-07-2015 08:18 PM)Godexists Wrote:  Imagine the difference between the image of an apple to your brain and a digital camera. The raw image is the same whether on a camera screen or in your head. The camera treats each pixel independently and doesn’t recognise an object. Your brain, however, will combine parts of the image to identify an object, that it is an apple and that it is food. Here, the camera can be seen as ‘unconscious’ and the brain as ‘conscious’.

Irrelevant. You brain (as science knows) LEARNS to assemble 3D images and can tell the difference, so your stupid example is meaningless.

(17-07-2015 08:18 PM)Godexists Wrote:  If you cut off a bit of your cerebellum (don’t try this at home) then you may walk a bit lopsided, but you would still be able to form conscious thoughts. If however, you decided to cut off a bit of your cortex, the outer-most folds of the brain, your conscious thought would be severely diminished and your life drastically impacted. So it seems that the number of brain cells we have doesn’t necessarily relate to conscious thought.

Read what you just wrote. Are you retarded ? YOU just agreed with me. YOU just agreed that a healthy brain is necessary for intact conscious thought.
And you just contradicted yourself in your own example.

Thanks for agreeing with us, that consciousness arises in intact healthy brains.

(Wow. This one refutes himself). This is like taking candy from a baby.
Tongue

Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-07-2015, 08:38 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(17-07-2015 08:18 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(17-07-2015 08:13 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Nope. Neuro-science knows a lot that you (obviously) have never been exposed to. You REALLY have no science AT ALL do you ?

Answer : google Scientific American, and 'consciousness'
He DOES know. You obviously know next to nothing. But thanks for making a fool of yourself, and demonstrating your ignorance with every post.

Thumbsup Yes

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t1370-co...sciousness

http://thebrainbank.scienceblog.com/2013...rspective/

What is consciousness? A scientist’s perspective.

We all know what consciousness is. We can tell when we’re awake, when we’re thinking, when we’re pondering the universe, but can anyone really explain the nature of this perception? Or even what separates conscious thought from subconscious thought?

You obviously did not understand the article in thebrainbank. Did you read the whole article? It is clearly stating that consciousness is entirely brain-based.

You cut and paste things that you don't understand. Read a book.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
17-07-2015, 08:56 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(17-07-2015 08:16 PM)Godexists Wrote:  If its legitimate, why have we not created life yet ??

You mean why have we not duplicated a process that had to occur with trillions of reactions worldwide, over millions of years, in just-ideal conditions we haven't even fully nailed down yet (thus all these discussions you quote-mined, as we try to unlock a giant jigsaw puzzle piece-by-piece), on a tabletop full of glassware in a basement lab somewhere?
[Image: 200_s.gif]


(17-07-2015 01:05 PM)Godexists Wrote:  http://labquimica.files.wordpress.com/20...alidad.pdf
The origin of the homochirality of amino acids is still an unsolved issue. There must have been a definite process to ensure that the sequence-based mechanism functioned in the RNA world. Future experiments will provide insights regarding the basis using which this mystery can be solved.

http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/...bial_World
Enantiomers are molecules that are mirror-images of each other. Today, amino acids and sugars exist in only one enantiomeric form in most biological systems on earth. This homochirality remains one of the greatest unsolved mysteries to scientists.

The conclusion of the article you're quote-mining (in full, when I do it) :

While the data supporting many of the arguments regarding the origins of a homochiral microbial world are enough to convince some people, there are many critiques that prevent this question from closing. For example, some argue that UV-CPL experiments for isovaline are not applicable, because the formation of isovaline enantiomer enrichment within the meteorite parent body would be shielded from CPL in interstellar space. Some also argue that amino acid symmetry breaking and amplification could have instead occurred physically, in processes such as crystallization. In brief, Kondepudi, et al (1990), reported that spontaneous chiral symmetry arises with rigorous stirring. When a solution of racemic crystals is not stirred, however, there is no rapid autocatalyzation. Asymmetric autocatalysis (the Soai reaction) with stirring, however, provided the first experimental evidence that small initial imbalances can be amplified under aqueous conditions to produce enantiomeric excess of up to 90 % .

The vast questions that still exist after decades of searching and researching make the origins of a homochiral microbial world a hot topic in microbiology. Though scientists are making strides to find solutions, it remains to be seen whether this question will ever be answered in full. The world is full of homochiral molecules—very specific with precise roles, asymmetry, and function. These molecules must have arisen out of a universe of ‘nothing.’ Implications as to how this occurred are only just beginning to be understood. Circular polarized light, transferring chirality to proteinogenic amino acids, and the aqueous amplification of enantiomers are subjects that should be pursued in ensuing research to answer the question, 'how did a homochiral microbial world form?'
(Internal citations omitted.)

Notice carefully that they are not saying it did not occur naturally, only that the mechanism is not known, and thus potential (competing) mechanisms for this process are still a hotly-contested debate in microbiology. But not one of those contestants thinks that it's "a problem" for the evolution of life. You're insane if you think that's what they're saying.

(17-07-2015 01:05 PM)Godexists Wrote:  http://www.cnrs.fr/Cnrspresse/n386/html/en386a11.htm
However, the question of the origin of biological homochirality remains as yet unanswered.


Here's the rest of the sentence after the comma, not the period, where you quote-mined. It goes on for some time before and after that half-sentence you quoted-mined.

"However, the question of the origin of biological homochirality remains as yet unanswered, although these results show that magnetochiral anisotropy offers one possible explanation."

So, yeah. That's just straight *L*Y*I*N*G*, dude.

(17-07-2015 01:05 PM)Godexists Wrote:  http://origins.harvard.edu/event/physica...ochirality
left and right-handed molecules of a compound will form in equal amounts (a racemic mixture) when we synthesize them in the laboratory in the absence of some type of directing template.

Oops! Heeeeeeeeeeeere's the rest of the quote:
"Single chirality is critical for molecular recognition and replication processes and would thus seem to be a a signature of life. Yet left and right-handed molecules of a compound will form in equal amounts (a racemic mixture) when we synthesize them in the laboratory in the absence of some type of directing template. Our work has led to the development of several plausible mechanisms for how one enantiomer might have come to dominate over the other in the prebiotic world, highlighting mechanisms for enantioenrichment by either chemical or physical processes. (Bold emphasis my own.)


(17-07-2015 01:05 PM)Godexists Wrote:  http://www.teknoscienze.com/Articles/Chi...qvM17Qucvk

Several mechanisms have been proposed for elucidating the origins of the chirality of organic compounds, such as circularly polarized light (CPL) (3) and quartz (4); however, a suitable amplification process for chirality is required to reach single-handedness of biological compounds (biological homochirality)

*sigh* More quote-mining. Ready for the next several sentences after you cut off poor Dr. Kawasaki? Heeeeeeere it is:

"Enantiomers with (S)- and ®-configurations show the same physical properties except for their optical rotation. If these enantiomers preferentially form a dimeric (or greater) aggregation, such as S·S (or R·R) and S·R, the aggregates possess different physical properties. Via the self-disproportionation induced by these diastereomeric interactions, the optical self-purification phenomenon has been observed in several processes, such as crystallization (5), distillation (6), sublimation (7) and chromatography (8), to afford enantiomerically amplified compounds.
Moreover, there are reactions in which the enantiopurity of the product is higher than that of the chiral catalyst; such phenomena are referred to as positive nonlinear effects (9). The first example of asymmetric amplification was reported by Kagan in 1986"
(Bold emphasis my own; internal citation numbers left in, to show what happened after #4 you cited, above, and that my quote is sequential).





(17-07-2015 01:05 PM)Godexists Wrote:  haha. How do you know they were not complex enough ? Laugh out loadBowing

Because they were single-celled organisms, and for a while everything was too genetically similar to itself to "invade" anything, in the sense you were using the term. Do I have to spell everything out for you? Geebus crisps, man! And actually, once things did diverge enough to invade other species, two events happened that are considered the greatest in the history of evolution, from a biochemical point of view: an invasion of the blue-green bacteria into larger cells formed early chloroplasts, which allowed algae and eventually plants to evolve, and purple bacteria invaded pre-animal cells to form what we today call mitochondria, in a symbiotic relationship that gives eukaryotic cells their energy. I'm too tired from hunting down your quote-mines to show you a link, but it's part of any college-level Biology 101.

So you can scoff and call it pseudoscience all you like, but if it is, I wasted a Dogdamned lot of study time trying to learn it all to pass that course about science.

Ugh, I'm done chasing down your quote-mines. I think I've proved my point.

[Image: bro-do-you-even-science.jpg]

Their facial expressions say it all.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 13 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
17-07-2015, 09:25 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(16-07-2015 06:56 AM)Godexists Wrote:  Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design

Imagine trying to stuff about 10,000 miles of spaghetti inside a basketball. Then, if that was not difficult enough, attempt to find a unique one inch segment of pasta from the middle of this mess, or try to duplicate, untangle and separate individual strings to opposite ends. This simple analogy illustrates some of the daunting tasks associated with the transcription, repair and replication of the nearly 2 meters of DNA that is packaged into the confines of a tiny eukaryotic nucleus. The solution to each of these problems lies in the assembly of the eukaryotic genome into chromatin, a structural polymer that not only solves the basic packaging problem, but also provides a dynamic platform that controls all DNA-mediated processes within the nucleus.

Every second, the cells constituting our bodies are replaced through cell division.An adult human consists of about 50,000 billion cells, 1% of which die and are replaced by cell division every day. In order to ensure cell survival and controlled growth of these new cells, the genetic information, stored in DNA molecules, must first be correctly copied and then accurately distributed during cell division. Moreover, to fully ascertain that the new cells will contain the same genetic information as the parental cells, any damage to the DNA, which is organised into several chromosomes, must be repaired.

Quite a bit is known about two of these complexes. One of them, cohesin, keeps the DNA copies together such that they do not separate too early; while the other, condensin, makes the chromosomes more compact, making the separation easier.

Packing ratio - the length of DNA divided by the length into which it is packaged

The shortest human chromosome contains 4.6 x 107 bp of DNA (about 10 times the genome size of E. coli). This is equivalent to 14,000 µm of extended DNA, or about 2 meters. In its most condensed state during mitosis, the chromosome is about 2 µm long. This gives a packing ratio of 7000 (14,000/2).

To achieve the overall packing ratio, DNA is not packaged directly into final structure of chromatin. Instead, it contains several hierarchies of organization.

The first level of packing is achieved by the winding of DNA around a protein core to produce a "bead-like" structure called a nucleosome. This gives a packing ratio of about 6. This structure is invariant in both the euchromatin and heterochromatin of all chromosomes.

The second level of packing is the coiling of beads in a helical structure called the 30 nm fiber that is found in both interphase chromatin and mitotic chromosomes. This structure increases the packing ratio to about 40.

The final packaging occurs when the fiber is organized in loops, scaffolds and domains that give a final packing ratio of about 1000 in interphase chromosomes and about 7,000 in mitotic chromosomes.

Thats a amazing change , from a ratio of 6, to 7.000 !!

To fit 2 meters of DNA into a tiny nucleus is a monumental engineering feat. DNA is highly compacted yet has to be instantly available to rapidly make proteins in neurons with a momentary change of thought. This regulation is different in each type of cell. . It has been known for some time that the shape of proteins determines their function and the folding is very complex involving four levels of folding .

Condensins: universal organizers of chromosomes with diverse functions

Condensins are multisubunit protein complexes that play a fundamental role in the structural and functional organization of chromosomes in the three domains of life. It is a molecular machine that helps to condense and package chromosomes for cell replication. It is a five subunit complex, and is “the key molecular machine of chromosome condensation.

Condensin produces “supercoils” of DNA, one of many steps in packing the delicate DNA strands into a hierarchy of coils that results in a densely-packed chromosome. “It is not entirely clear how the DNA is held in this supercoiled state,” , “but several studies suggest that the V-shaped arms of the condensin complex may loop and clamp the DNA in place.” This clamping is “rapid and reversible.” Scientists watching the process in both bacteria and humans are “showing that both vertebrate and bacterial condensins drive DNA compaction in an ATP-dependent fashion with a surprising level of co-operativity that was not fully appreciated.” The condensin molecules work as a team; if not enough condensin is around, nothing happens. condensin is just one of many enzymes involved in chromosome formation.

The chromosomal condensin complex is a major molecular effector of chromosome condensation and segregation in diverse organisms ranging from bacteria to humans. Condensin is a large, evolutionarily conserved, multisubunit protein assembly composed of dimers of the structural maintenance of chromosomes (SMC) family of ATPases, clasped into topologically closed rings by accessory subunits.

At the end of S phase, the immensely long DNA molecules of the sister chromatids are tangled in a mass of partially catenated DNA and proteins. Any attempt to pull the sisters apart in this state would undoubtedly lead to breaks in the chromosomes. To avoid this disaster, the cell devotes a great deal of energy in early mitosis to gradually reorganizing the sister chromatids into relatively short, distinct structures that can be pulled apart more easily in anaphase. These chromosomal changes involve two processes: chromosome condensation, in which the chromatids are dramatically compacted; and sister-chromatid resolution, whereby the two sisters are resolved into distinct, separable units

How could these nano machines arise by natural means, in a gradual stepwise manner ? These molecular machines had to be in place when life began, since they are essential. Mutation and natural selection is not a conceivable mechanism at this stage. Unless someone can demonstrate a series of small steps to climb mount unprobable (as Richard Dawkins calls the challenge of evolving complex, information-rich, functional biological structures), this is wishful thinking. The mountain is not a series of small steps, but a cliff with slippery vertical walls. And why would a mindless molecule even want to go climb uphill against its natural inclinations? The discoveries in biochemistry are making evolution increasingly untenable. Here we see highly complex molecules, made up of building blocks (amino acids) arranged in precise sequences to build functioning machines. The complexity is mind-boggling, and it exists all the way down in the very simplest single-celled life forms, with no precursors. Without these machines, the cell could not divide. Proposing intelligent design is not a argument of ignorance. We know that intelligent minds are capable of projecting complex machines where ideas of problem solutions are required. Intelligent minds are able to store large quantities of information into small spaces, computer chips are a good example. As conclusion, Intelligent design constitutes the best, most causally adequate, explanation for the existence of these highly complex, essential nano machines in the cell.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t2086-ch...esign#3646
Hello,
Respectfully, there is no way to suppose intelligent design, especially the god of Abraham. We do not, in science, suppose the supernatural in the absence of demonstrable evidence. We find the evidence to support our claims after tireless research. In other words, if the answer is not there, we will soon find it, but until then we say that we do not know the answer.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like thebraveatheist's post
17-07-2015, 09:57 PM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2015 10:00 PM by Ace.)
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
oh boy,
[Image: Here-We-Go-Again-FanMade-Album-Cover-her...00-400.jpg]

can someone tell me how this is anything but a "I don't know therefore invisible magic man in the sky" argument ?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: