Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
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19-07-2015, 06:47 AM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(19-07-2015 02:08 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  There you go sweet heart! Now go learn why IC is a lie and then become an atheist like all of us after learning that everything you have been told is a lie.

Yeah, so sweet how non thinking atheists link to the video and parrot the argument of a individual, which brings forward a perfect example of stupid pseudo science.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t1528-th...=flagellum

Millers refutation of irreducible complexity of the Flagellum through co-option  is a prima facie example of a pseudo scientific argument. Since Miller recognizes implicitly that a gradual evolutionary step by step development of the flagellum is not possible, he comes up with a ad hoc explanation, namely co-opting parts from other biological systems. That copying, modifying, and combining together preexisting parts , already operating in other systems, would do the job. But, is it really ? Could it be, that super evolutionary mechanisms would act that way, borrowing parts from other biological systems and assemble them to a flagellum with a new function , perfectly ordered, with perfect fits, and new functions,with the help of saint time , that would do that miracle ? Even thinking, that time in this case would rather be detrimental, than help ? Would it really be, that the most perfect and efficient motor in the universe could arise by copy/pasta , by a supernatural pick and add , a molecular quilt and patchwork mechanism? The question that follows is what exactly did the recruiting? What provokes recruitment to another system? and you believe in Santa Claus, as well ? Thats not only insane, but completely impossible.

[Image: meme_g10.jpg]

For a working biological system to be built by exaptation , the five following conditions would all have to be met:

C1: Availability. Among the parts available for recruitment to form the system, there would need to be ones capable of performing the highly specialized tasks of individual parts, even though all of these items serve some other function or no function.

C2: Synchronization. The availability of these parts would have to be synchronized so that at some point, either individually or in combination, they are all available at the same time.

C3: Localization. The selected parts must all be made available at the same ‘construction site,’ perhaps not simultaneously but certainly at the time they are needed.

C4: Coordination. The parts must be coordinated in just the right way: even if all of the parts of a system are available at the right time, it is clear that the majority of ways of assembling them will be non-functional or irrelevant.

C5: Interface compatibility. The parts must be mutually compatible, that is, ‘well-matched’ and capable of properly ‘interacting’: even if sub systems or parts are put together in the right order, they also need to interface correctly.


( Agents Under Fire: Materialism and the Rationality of Science, pgs. 104-105 (Rowman & Littlefield, 2004). HT: ENV.)

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t2091-te...ion-option
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19-07-2015, 07:45 AM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(19-07-2015 01:02 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Just as I cannot understand the mind of a rapist, I cannot understand the kind of people who would go to the deliberate trouble of making up a "science-sounding" journal, that seems to support evolutionary theory (with a few odd skews, like "limits", yet that don't discuss the math of how they got to those limits;

It's what you get from people who have no clue what science is or how it works. They see scientists put on white coats and publish papers in journals so they think that's all it takes to be scientists. Many, if not most, seem to not understand that saying something is true and having others agree isn't enough to have it deserve equal credence with peer-reviewed, tested scientific hypotheses.

Sometimes it's kind of like watching elections in a dictatorship; all pomp and show and totally void of meaning and deserving nothing but derision. Sometimes it's more like watching a group of little girls having an imaginary tea party.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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19-07-2015, 08:16 AM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(18-07-2015 10:08 PM)Godexists Wrote:  So in order to refute my arguments, its not enought to point out to the sources....

uh....

(19-07-2015 06:45 AM)Godexists Wrote:  ( and please dont say to watch ken millers video ) he defintively never thought about that. He is a stupid parrot.

You're kinda fucking stupid ain't ya?

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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19-07-2015, 09:05 AM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(19-07-2015 06:47 AM)Godexists Wrote:  Millers refutation of irreducible complexity of the Flagellum through co-option  is a prima facie example of a pseudo scientific argument. Since Miller recognizes implicitly that a gradual evolutionary step by step development of the flagellum is not possible, he comes up with a ad hoc explanation, namely co-opting parts from other biological systems. That copying, modifying, and combining together preexisting parts , already operating in other systems, would do the job. But, is it really ? Could it be, that super evolutionary mechanisms would act that way, borrowing parts from other biological systems and assemble them to a flagellum with a new function , perfectly ordered, with perfect fits, and new functions,with the help of saint time , that would do that miracle ? Even thinking, that time in this case would rather be detrimental, than help ? Would it really be, that the most perfect and efficient motor in the universe could arise by copy/pasta , by a supernatural pick and add , a molecular quilt and patchwork mechanism? The question that follows is what exactly did the recruiting? What provokes recruitment to another system? and you believe in Santa Claus, as well ? Thats not only insane, but completely impossible.

Shadow Fox - You know, the great irony here is that, in the pseudoscientific, fake Journal he linked to, the things he's denigrating there are exactly what the other asshole was proposing is the only way evolution can happen. They're just throwing shit at the wall with "just-so" arguments, in the hopes they're generating enough static to keep themselves from realizing evolution is reality (or to keep others from leaving the faith, maybe).

Some of our genes have 80+ copies (replications) of the same gene, in our systems (which can get "rampant", and cause cancer in some instances, where too many of the same gene are present, even without other mutations... and co-opting systems for other purposes happens all the time, and can be traced. It's a major part of any college cellular biology or biochem course. This guy isn't interested in actual debate.

I am done with him. You should be, too. That level of dishonesty is way off the Richter scale of what should be tolerated in people deserving of one keystroke of reply. Perhaps Christians cannot help but lie in the defense of their "truth"?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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19-07-2015, 09:16 AM (This post was last modified: 19-07-2015 09:32 AM by Ace.)
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(19-07-2015 06:45 AM)Godexists Wrote:  
(19-07-2015 02:08 AM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  DNA being IC has been debunked for quite some time.

oh wow. Really ?? That is new to me. Because i developed the argument without knowing anyone else bringing it forward. Please point out where else you saw someonw making it. ( and please dont say to watch ken millers video ) he defintively never thought about that. He is a stupid parrot.

thanks.


even if its IC it still doesn't prove that a god exists, all it would do is prove that something is IC nothing more and nothing less

here's what it would look like if someone actually tried and succeeded in proving gods existence:

step 1 : define god coherently
step 2 : set up a experiment to falsify the positive claim in several attempts in controlled conditions
step 3 : check results of experiments to see whether they support the positive claim or the null hypothesis
step 4 : if it the successful then get your data peer reviewed by as many scientists as possible
step 5 : if peer review approves of it then publish it far and wide

this is how science works, yet no arguments for god or religion EVER follows this

this is how apologists work:
step 1: criticize anything that doesn't agree with my personal beliefs
step 2: look for something to make it look wrong
step 3: present false dichotomy
step 4: push it while avoiding hard question, especially on how that proves your correct
step5: publish it to ensure conformity among laymen who don't know any better

the irreducible complexity argument false flat on its face because its nothing but garbage
it can't answer these obvious and very essential questions
1) how do we verify its by design ?
2) if its by design then who designed it ? (out of the thousands of gods people have made up why is the god you believe in the most viable candidate?)
3) how did the designer make it ?
4) why did the designer make it ?

seriously what experiments can you do that would answer any of this ? what prediction does it offer ? what decisions can be made with this information whose outcomes that will manifest in our senses differently than without it ? (the last one means if it doesn't affect my decision making in any way then it being right or wrong has no meaning because its worthless)

anti evolution arguments are made by people who think that if one piece doesn't fit in the evolutionary puzzle then the whole thing has to go, by this logic gravity is wrong because a helium filled balloon floats upwards rather than falling to the ground. yet they will do the exact opposite when it comes to their own beliefs
and most arguments are made by people who have already decided to reject evolution
they believe that there are only two options so if evolution doesn't win then religion wins by default this fallacy is called the false dichotomy

there has never been a moment in history where knowledge and understand was furthered by invoking a supernatural cause (in this case god) to explain anything

edit: we've seen every arguments for god or religion against evolution or anything else for that matter a billion times by now
here's a list
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

the flagellum and irreducible complexity are in CB200

edit 2:

the discovery institute has zero scientific credibility because it doesn't follow the scientific method
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19-07-2015, 09:46 AM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
And because the Discovery Institute is made up of people who have proved, time and again, willing to outright lie and manipulate in order to advance an agenda which they have clearly stated (back when they were called the Institute for Creation Research) from the outset, outright admitting to deliberate duplicity as primary strategy to advance their religious views:

The Wedge Document
http://ncse.com/creationism/general/wedge-document

Once they realized their name was hampering them from their original goal of obfuscating the truth, they changed it to the Discovery Institute.

The National Center for Science Education also has a pretty good breakdown of their lying tactics:
http://ncse.com/creationism/general/anal...bliography

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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19-07-2015, 09:54 AM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(19-07-2015 09:05 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I am done with him.

running from addressing my points. Nice escape. You are dishonest to yourself, since you are unwilling to acknowledge your creator...... not because of the evidence, but because you do not want probably someone above you. Thumbsup
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19-07-2015, 09:58 AM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
That's how I know you're a troll, GE.

No rational person could look at the depth to which I looked into your initial statements, the seriousness of my replies when I thought perhaps you were an honest debater, and get the impression that I'm "escaping" from your points.

If I believed for a moment that you were truly willing to debate rationally, I'd be all about it, but you are clearly part of the Discovery Institute type of mentality, in which it is okay to lie and manipulate people in the name of the Lord.

That makes you a sociopath, and I will not engage with a sociopath on their own ground.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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19-07-2015, 10:02 AM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(19-07-2015 09:16 AM)Ace Wrote:  
(19-07-2015 06:45 AM)Godexists Wrote:  oh wow. Really ?? That is new to me. Because i developed the argument without knowing anyone else bringing it forward. Please point out where else you saw someonw making it. ( and please dont say to watch ken millers video ) he defintively never thought about that. He is a stupid parrot.

thanks.


even if its IC it still doesn't prove that a god exists, all it would do is prove that something is IC nothing more and nothing less

here's what it would look like if someone actually tried and succeeded in proving gods existence:

step 1 : define god coherently
step 2 : set up a experiment to falsify the positive claim in several attempts in controlled conditions
step 3 : check results of experiments to see whether they support the positive claim or the null hypothesis
step 4 : if it the successful then get your data peer reviewed by as many scientists as possible
step 5 : if peer review approves of it then publish it far and wide

this is how science works, yet no arguments for god or religion EVER follows this

this is how apologists work:
step 1: criticize anything that doesn't agree with my personal beliefs
step 2: look for something to make it look wrong
step 3: present false dichotomy
step 4: push it while avoiding hard question, especially on how that proves your correct
step5: publish it to ensure conformity among laymen who don't know any better

the irreducible complexity argument false flat on its face because its nothing but garbage
it can't answer these obvious and very essential questions
1) how do we verify its by design ?
2) if its by design then who designed it ? (out of the thousands of gods people have made up why is the god you believe in the most viable candidate?)
3) how did the designer make it ?
4) why did the designer make it ?

seriously what experiments can you do that would answer any of this ? what prediction does it offer ? what decisions can be made with this information whose outcomes that will manifest in our senses differently than without it ? (the last one means if it doesn't affect my decision making in any way then it being right or wrong has no meaning because its worthless)

anti evolution arguments are made by people who think that if one piece doesn't fit in the evolutionary puzzle then the whole thing has to go, by this logic gravity is wrong because a helium filled balloon floats upwards rather than falling to the ground. yet they will do the exact opposite when it comes to their own beliefs
and most arguments are made by people who have already decided to reject evolution
they believe that there are only two options so if evolution doesn't win then religion wins by default this fallacy is called the false dichotomy

there has never been a moment in history where knowledge and understand was furthered by invoking a supernatural cause (in this case god) to explain anything

edit: we've seen every arguments for god or religion against evolution or anything else for that matter a billion times by now
here's a list
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html

the flagellum and irreducible complexity are in CB200

edit 2:

the discovery institute has zero scientific credibility because it doesn't follow the scientific method

your long post is irrelevant. What you need to do, is actually address my evidence and refute it if you can.

DNA , and irreducible complexity

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t2093-dn...le-complex

[Image: the_pr11.png]

Individual bases : take away the sugar in the DNA backbone = no function
Take away the phosphate in the backbone = no function
Take away the nucleic acid bases = no function
Evolution is not a driving force at this stage, since replication of the cell depends on DNA.
So the individual DNA molecules are irreducible complex
DNA in general ( the double helix )
Unless the two types, purines, and pyrimidines are present, and so the individual four bases = no function, and no hability of information storage
The the enzymes and proteins for assembly and synthesis of the DNA structure must also be present, otherwise, no DNA double helix......

Origin of the DNA deoxyribonucleic acid double helix

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t2028-or...uble-helix
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19-07-2015, 10:26 AM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design












Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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