Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
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16-07-2015, 06:47 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(16-07-2015 06:43 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 04:59 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Here is the thing. Do you believe that you were personally created or intelligently designed and created ?

I'm hoping the answer is no, because then that would lead us to a conversation of "Do you know where babies come from ?"

More than likely, you were born, just like the rest of us and were a product of your fathers sperm and your mothers egg.
And each of your parents were born, in much the same way you were. You weren't an exact copy of either of your parents. You were born different from them. You may possess some or many family traits that were handed down to you. Eye color, the shape of your nose, your height, etc.

When we look at the large diversity of life on the planet, we begin to see how much we all have in common.
Common ancestors, changes in genetic structure over vasts periods of time.

We can trace our origins back pretty far.

We are biological creatures that arrived in our current state through purely natural biological processes.

Your post is evidence that you have little clue about development biology, and how bodies are build , and what factors are involved.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t2098-epigenetics

So, you are an admin on another forum and that's the credentials you offer?

Seems that posting this link in your posts over and over is kind of spammy...not getting much action over at heavensgate?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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16-07-2015, 06:48 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(16-07-2015 06:43 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 04:59 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Here is the thing. Do you believe that you were personally created or intelligently designed and created ?

I'm hoping the answer is no, because then that would lead us to a conversation of "Do you know where babies come from ?"

More than likely, you were born, just like the rest of us and were a product of your fathers sperm and your mothers egg.
And each of your parents were born, in much the same way you were. You weren't an exact copy of either of your parents. You were born different from them. You may possess some or many family traits that were handed down to you. Eye color, the shape of your nose, your height, etc.

When we look at the large diversity of life on the planet, we begin to see how much we all have in common.
Common ancestors, changes in genetic structure over vasts periods of time.

We can trace our origins back pretty far.

We are biological creatures that arrived in our current state through purely natural biological processes.

Your post is evidence that you have little clue about development biology, and how bodies are build , and what factors are involved.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t2098-epigenetics

That site has woo, not science. Whatever clue you think you have about biology is fatally tainted by presupposition.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-07-2015, 06:48 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(16-07-2015 06:43 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 04:59 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Here is the thing. Do you believe that you were personally created or intelligently designed and created ?

I'm hoping the answer is no, because then that would lead us to a conversation of "Do you know where babies come from ?"

More than likely, you were born, just like the rest of us and were a product of your fathers sperm and your mothers egg.
And each of your parents were born, in much the same way you were. You weren't an exact copy of either of your parents. You were born different from them. You may possess some or many family traits that were handed down to you. Eye color, the shape of your nose, your height, etc.

When we look at the large diversity of life on the planet, we begin to see how much we all have in common.
Common ancestors, changes in genetic structure over vasts periods of time.

We can trace our origins back pretty far.

We are biological creatures that arrived in our current state through purely natural biological processes.

Your post is evidence that you have little clue about development biology, and how bodies are build , and what factors are involved.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t2098-epigenetics
*developmental
*built

"If there's a single thing that life teaches us, it's that wishing doesn't make it so." - Lev Grossman
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16-07-2015, 07:50 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
Quote:Is intelligent design generally, and irreducible complexity particularly, a mere argument of ignorance ?


Not only that, it is also an argument of the ignorant, by the ignorant and for the ignorant.

Now go read your fucking bible.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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16-07-2015, 07:51 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
Your personal inability to believe something does not make it untrue.

I tend not to read text blocks of bullshit word salad, so I only skimmed. But I do not recall you offering any evidence of your god. Especially since I didn't see a definition of your god, which I would need in order to have any evidence of it.

Even if we had no idea of how life arose, can you propose an alternate workable method? How, exactly, did your god (who is still undefined, btw) create life? By what mechanism? What physically happened?
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16-07-2015, 08:38 PM (This post was last modified: 16-07-2015 08:57 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(16-07-2015 06:56 AM)Godexists Wrote:  (Lots of biology, before we finally get to the point)

How could these nano machines arise by natural means, in a gradual stepwise manner ? These molecular machines had to be in place when life began, since they are essential.

Really? Life couldn't have begun with simpler DNA/RNA that didn't compact up like this and didn't need to be unpacked? You cited eukaryote processes specifically. Eukaryota are very advanced single-cell organisms, and you have said nothing about the far-more basic bacteria.

(16-07-2015 06:56 AM)Godexists Wrote:  Mutation and natural selection is not a conceivable mechanism at this stage. Unless someone can demonstrate a series of small steps to climb mount unprobable (as Richard Dawkins calls the challenge of evolving complex, information-rich, functional biological structures), this is wishful thinking. The mountain is not a series of small steps, but a cliff with slippery vertical walls.

Okay, this is either willful, deliberate misrepresentation and misquoting of Dawkins, or someone parroting crap he doesn't understand about a subject which he doesn't understand, because he likes the ultimate conclusion provided by the first person he heard on the subject.

(16-07-2015 06:56 AM)Godexists Wrote:  And why would a mindless molecule even want to go climb uphill against its natural inclinations?

And now I'm leaning towards "crap he doesn't understand", on the grounds of "he thinks organisms actually choose or want to evolve". Dude, TRUST me. You'll embarrass yourself far less if you actually learn what evolution is, rather than what its detractors and the ID spin doctors maliciously misrepresent it as being.

(16-07-2015 06:56 AM)Godexists Wrote:  The discoveries in biochemistry are making evolution increasingly untenable. Here we see highly complex molecules, made up of building blocks (amino acids) arranged in precise sequences to build functioning machines. The complexity is mind-boggling, and it exists all the way down in the very simplest single-celled life forms, with no precursors. Without these machines, the cell could not divide.

Already covered. Eukaryota are some of the most complex single-celled organisms, not the simplest.

Also? THIS ISN'T ABOUT EVOLUTION. This is about abiogenesis. I could grant you every last blatantly flawed argument and you still wouldn't have made the slightest case about evolution. You're aiming at the wrong target. See previous comments about "crap he doesn't understand".

(16-07-2015 06:56 AM)Godexists Wrote:  Proposing intelligent design is not a argument of ignorance. We know that intelligent minds are capable of projecting complex machines where ideas of problem solutions are required. Intelligent minds are able to store large quantities of information into small spaces, computer chips are a good example. As conclusion, Intelligent design constitutes the best, most causally adequate, explanation for the existence of these highly complex, essential nano machines in the cell.

But we know of no intelligent minds capable of existing PRIOR TO THE ADVENT OF CELL DIVISION. They're all dependent upon the exact same processes you dismiss evolution as not being able to produce, or they are inventions of minds that are dependent on those. How does this get us out of your supposed chicken and the egg problem? Can you propose how a mind can exist prior to these supposed problems in biochemistry being addressed... and do so with the same, consistent level of skepticism that you show towards evolution abiogenesis? How is this any LESS of a stretch than positing abiogenesis through natural processes?

This is all the same ID crap we've heard before. Key features include: misrepresenting evolution, misdefining evolution, misquoting and quote-mining famous evolutionist, putting forward oversimplified models of evolution and then demanding everything must fit these neutered models, applying a double-standard of incredulity towards naturalism and complete, unquestioning credulity towards the proposed alternative, not ACTUALLY proposing a clear alternative but keeping language completely vague, refusal to provide any testable hypothesis or mechanism for falsification, and generally carrying on like they deserve credit, attention, and respect when they can't even present their ideas as science.

EDIT: In follow-up posts you brought up irreducible complexity and Michael Behe. Irreducible complexity is an example of the neutered models of evolution I mentioned before. Sometimes evolution cuts out a part rather than grows it, akin to building a stone arch over a pile of sand and then removing the sand. That arch is then irreducibly complex, because you can't remove any stone in the arch and have it still work. But presenting irreducible complexity as something that can't be produced by evolution is blatantly disingenuous, because it ignores the capacity of evolutionary processes to eliminate elements. It's as straw-man as straw-manning gets.

As for Michael Behe? The guy's an embarrassment. In court, he showed himself ignorant of the scientific literature that undermined his positions and examples... almost as if he didn't care whether it existed. He was also forced, under oath, when he finally was facing criminal consequences for continuing in his lies, to admit that he had to completely redefine "science" in order to describe intelligent design as science, and this broader, made-up definition of science included alchemy and astrology.
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16-07-2015, 08:41 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
The Bible says God took the dust of the earth and formed man and breathed the breath of life into him. According to the Bible, man was created by God for God. God made man to serve him, but because he loved man so much he gave us free will so that we aren't forced to obey him or serve him. Man messes up in the Bible so God decides to destroy man because he is a jealous God. God can't coexist with sin so when sin entered into the world God had to start judging mankind. Gods way of saving mankind was by sending Jesus to die on the cross to bear the sins of the world so that we may be forgiven for our sins and coexist with God in heaven. Your sins can be forgiven by believing in Jesus Christ and that he died for your sin and that we can leave our sin on the cross with him. If we do not ask for that forgiveness and strive to no longer sin (although it is impossible to be without sin because sin is in mankind) then we will have to face the punishment of hell because we won't be allowed to coexist with that sin in heaven with God. The whole reason for the virgin birth of Jesus was so the sin nature wouldn't be passed down from man since Jesus was actually God in the form of man. Jesus was the evidence and physical proof of God. He was Gods way of showing his existence. Jesus never did any wrong and never sinned. The reason God isn't on earth showing us his existence is because he cannot coexist with man because of sin. Jesus was 100% human while also 100% God. He was tempted and tried by Satan but he still didn't sin because he was God. He literally became sin for us so that our future generations could be saved. I'm just letting you all know what Christians believe God and Jesus and man is so that you won't have to ask for definitions in the future. Theist don't do a good job of explaining this before attacking the Atheist.
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16-07-2015, 08:50 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
The "dust of the earth" huh? Ok, how did he take the inorganic matter such as silicone, iron, and quartz and turn it into the incredibly complex human body? Where did the carbon come from? How about the energy needed to break the old chemical bonds and form new ones? How PHYSICALLY was this done? What is this "breath of life?" How did he start the electrical impulses in the brain to control the involuntary controls of the body? Prior to the breath of life how did he keep the neurons from decaying prematurely?

How did we mess up? Because according to the bible we are tossed out of Eden "lest we eat of the tree of life and gain immortality."

What evidence do you have to back up your Jesus myth? What external sources do you have to corroborate it?

But, here's the big one.

WHAT IS GOD? What are his properties? What are his abilities? What are his limitations? How could we demonstrate this thing?
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16-07-2015, 09:00 PM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2015 07:58 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(16-07-2015 06:56 AM)Godexists Wrote:  Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design

Imagine trying to stuff about 10,000 miles of spaghetti inside a basketball. Then, if that was not difficult enough, attempt to find a unique one inch segment of pasta from the middle of this mess, or try to duplicate, untangle and separate individual strings to opposite ends. This simple analogy illustrates some of the daunting tasks associated with the transcription, repair and replication of the nearly 2 meters of DNA that is packaged into the confines of a tiny eukaryotic nucleus. The solution to each of these problems lies in the assembly of the eukaryotic genome into chromatin, a structural polymer that not only solves the basic packaging problem, but also provides a dynamic platform that controls all DNA-mediated processes within the nucleus.

Every second, the cells constituting our bodies are replaced through cell division.An adult human consists of about 50,000 billion cells, 1% of which die and are replaced by cell division every day. In order to ensure cell survival and controlled growth of these new cells, the genetic information, stored in DNA molecules, must first be correctly copied and then accurately distributed during cell division. Moreover, to fully ascertain that the new cells will contain the same genetic information as the parental cells, any damage to the DNA, which is organised into several chromosomes, must be repaired.

Quite a bit is known about two of these complexes. One of them, cohesin, keeps the DNA copies together such that they do not separate too early; while the other, condensin, makes the chromosomes more compact, making the separation easier.

Packing ratio - the length of DNA divided by the length into which it is packaged

The shortest human chromosome contains 4.6 x 107 bp of DNA (about 10 times the genome size of E. coli). This is equivalent to 14,000 µm of extended DNA, or about 2 meters. In its most condensed state during mitosis, the chromosome is about 2 µm long. This gives a packing ratio of 7000 (14,000/2).

To achieve the overall packing ratio, DNA is not packaged directly into final structure of chromatin. Instead, it contains several hierarchies of organization.

The first level of packing is achieved by the winding of DNA around a protein core to produce a "bead-like" structure called a nucleosome. This gives a packing ratio of about 6. This structure is invariant in both the euchromatin and heterochromatin of all chromosomes.

The second level of packing is the coiling of beads in a helical structure called the 30 nm fiber that is found in both interphase chromatin and mitotic chromosomes. This structure increases the packing ratio to about 40.

The final packaging occurs when the fiber is organized in loops, scaffolds and domains that give a final packing ratio of about 1000 in interphase chromosomes and about 7,000 in mitotic chromosomes.

Thats a amazing change , from a ratio of 6, to 7.000 !!

To fit 2 meters of DNA into a tiny nucleus is a monumental engineering feat. DNA is highly compacted yet has to be instantly available to rapidly make proteins in neurons with a momentary change of thought. This regulation is different in each type of cell. . It has been known for some time that the shape of proteins determines their function and the folding is very complex involving four levels of folding .

Condensins: universal organizers of chromosomes with diverse functions

Condensins are multisubunit protein complexes that play a fundamental role in the structural and functional organization of chromosomes in the three domains of life. It is a molecular machine that helps to condense and package chromosomes for cell replication. It is a five subunit complex, and is “the key molecular machine of chromosome condensation.

Condensin produces “supercoils” of DNA, one of many steps in packing the delicate DNA strands into a hierarchy of coils that results in a densely-packed chromosome. “It is not entirely clear how the DNA is held in this supercoiled state,” , “but several studies suggest that the V-shaped arms of the condensin complex may loop and clamp the DNA in place.” This clamping is “rapid and reversible.” Scientists watching the process in both bacteria and humans are “showing that both vertebrate and bacterial condensins drive DNA compaction in an ATP-dependent fashion with a surprising level of co-operativity that was not fully appreciated.” The condensin molecules work as a team; if not enough condensin is around, nothing happens. condensin is just one of many enzymes involved in chromosome formation.

The chromosomal condensin complex is a major molecular effector of chromosome condensation and segregation in diverse organisms ranging from bacteria to humans. Condensin is a large, evolutionarily conserved, multisubunit protein assembly composed of dimers of the structural maintenance of chromosomes (SMC) family of ATPases, clasped into topologically closed rings by accessory subunits.

At the end of S phase, the immensely long DNA molecules of the sister chromatids are tangled in a mass of partially catenated DNA and proteins. Any attempt to pull the sisters apart in this state would undoubtedly lead to breaks in the chromosomes. To avoid this disaster, the cell devotes a great deal of energy in early mitosis to gradually reorganizing the sister chromatids into relatively short, distinct structures that can be pulled apart more easily in anaphase. These chromosomal changes involve two processes: chromosome condensation, in which the chromatids are dramatically compacted; and sister-chromatid resolution, whereby the two sisters are resolved into distinct, separable units

How could these nano machines arise by natural means, in a gradual stepwise manner ? These molecular machines had to be in place when life began, since they are essential. Mutation and natural selection is not a conceivable mechanism at this stage. Unless someone can demonstrate a series of small steps to climb mount unprobable (as Richard Dawkins calls the challenge of evolving complex, information-rich, functional biological structures), this is wishful thinking. The mountain is not a series of small steps, but a cliff with slippery vertical walls. And why would a mindless molecule even want to go climb uphill against its natural inclinations? The discoveries in biochemistry are making evolution increasingly untenable. Here we see highly complex molecules, made up of building blocks (amino acids) arranged in precise sequences to build functioning machines. The complexity is mind-boggling, and it exists all the way down in the very simplest single-celled life forms, with no precursors. Without these machines, the cell could not divide. Proposing intelligent design is not a argument of ignorance. We know that intelligent minds are capable of projecting complex machines where ideas of problem solutions are required. Intelligent minds are able to store large quantities of information into small spaces, computer chips are a good example. As conclusion, Intelligent design constitutes the best, most causally adequate, explanation for the existence of these highly complex, essential nano machines in the cell.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t2086-ch...esign#3646

A complete pile of garbage.
The "design" argument is not an argument for a god. in fact science knows how chromosomes developed, and most of all an truly omnipotent god could make life happen, no matter how intricate the design is. In fact the (poor) design we see, which often malfunctions (causing cancer and all sorts of diseases) is exactly the system one would expect if it were not designed.
There is no "argument" for a god. Christian Theology teaches, (which you obviously know nothing about) says faith is a gift of your god. You either get the gift, or you don't. If you need an argument in order to believe, you obviously don't have faith. Too bad for you. "Many are called, but few are CHOSEN", "No one shall come to me UNLESS the Father draw him". You really should study your Bible. It contradicts you 110 %. Tongue

BTW, "godexists" ... if god *exists* then she doesn't "not exist". Therefore, as long as your "existing" god existed, non-existence also was a part of Reality. She couldn't have created the very reality in which she is embedded and required to participate in. She is therefore not "infinite" if reality is larger than she is. Oh well. Time for Plan B.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-07-2015, 09:04 PM (This post was last modified: 16-07-2015 09:19 PM by Grave.)
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
Woah, why so aggressive? I'm just letting you know what the Bible says. I have love for mankind. To answer some of your questions though, for a Christian, there is no scientifical evidence needed to prove what the Bible says. Christians choose to believe it by faith and faith alone. Atheist are different. Atheist don't believe things without scientific evidence or at least some scientific possibility. It's okay to disagree about things. According to the Bible, Christians aren't supposed to try and force creationism down anyone's throat, but we are to spread the word. Man messed up by believing the lie of Satan and eating of the forbidden fruit that God told Adam and Eve to never touch. That fruit held the knowledge of good and evil. According to the Bible, man was made with the purpose of serving God and not to be evil or sin. When God gave man the choice, however, to either obey him or not, there had to be good and evil. Yes, he could have created robots to serve him and only do good no matter what, but that wouldn't have satisfied God. God wanted mankind to freely choose to serve him, so there had to be a choice to choose evil (sin). Man chose sin because Satan told Adam and Eve that they would be become like God and because God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent; man wanted that power. So man ate the forbidden fruit and God had to banish them from the perfect sinless garden that he created for them. The amazing part of Gods love for mankind is that he still created us knowing that we would choose sin over him. According the Bible, even though we have that freedom of choice it doesn't change the fact that we were created with the intentions of choosing him and because he is a jealous God and he cannot live with sin, we have to believe in Jesus Christ and ask forgiveness of our sins in order to be able to walk with him in heaven as Adam walked with him in the garden.
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