Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
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20-07-2015, 07:22 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
On a side note, and at the risk of making this an ad hominem attack... why do you keep picking photographs of famous morons to pose the questions you want to pose to us? Portraying yourself as a famous idiot like Homer Simpson or Mr.Bean isn't exactly going to scream, "Hey! Take my ideas seriously, guys!"

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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20-07-2015, 07:23 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
Godexists: "My God so smart, he made ever'thin."

Meanwhile, in Genesis 6: The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”
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20-07-2015, 07:31 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
From GE's earlier post:
[Image: the_ge11.png]

I noted you cited this as a way to disprove how evolution could make DNA, but it's actually close to a good metaphor, or in any case I like this one, so I'm gonna run with it.

You got one part wrong in your analogy, though. It's not the letters that stick to the board, it's the letters that stick to each other. There is no board.

Instead of sticking 26 letters (including 2 periods) on a magnetic board, take a series of 4 letters (it's actually 64 letters, since DNA reads in groups of 3, and 4^3=64, though some code for the same letter so it's really just over 20 letters and a few punctuation marks) that stick to one another, throw a few trillion of them into a football stadium where any of them can randomly link up in as many combinations as they want, and then wade through and see if you find even one complete sentence made of your 20 letters. If you fail, try it again in one second. Then try it again, and again, and again, for about 500,000,000 years. Think you could get that sentence that way?

It's not a car engine. It's not magnets on a board. It's certainly not a 747 in a tornado or a Swiss watch. It's chemicals that stick to each other, swirling all around the globe for millions of years of constant reactions.

Guess how many self-replicators (the sentence) had to form out of those millions of years of throwing trillions of letters into a stadium? One. Because once you had it, it replicated into two. Then four. Then eight... get the picture?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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20-07-2015, 07:37 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(20-07-2015 06:45 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(20-07-2015 06:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  There were replicating molecules before there was RNA or DNA. DNA evolved from earlier molecules.

[Image: my_mem12.jpg]

Because DNA and RNA did not always exist. They are assembled from simpler molecules.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-07-2015, 07:42 PM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(16-07-2015 06:56 AM)Godexists Wrote:  Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design

Imagine trying to stuff about 10,000 miles of spaghetti inside a basketball. Then, if that was not difficult enough, attempt to find a unique one inch segment of pasta from the middle of this mess, or try to duplicate, untangle and separate individual strings to opposite ends. This simple analogy illustrates some of the daunting tasks associated with the transcription, repair and replication of the nearly 2 meters of DNA that is packaged into the confines of a tiny eukaryotic nucleus. The solution to each of these problems lies in the assembly of the eukaryotic genome into chromatin, a structural polymer that not only solves the basic packaging problem, but also provides a dynamic platform that controls all DNA-mediated processes within the nucleus.

Every second, the cells constituting our bodies are replaced through cell division.An adult human consists of about 50,000 billion cells, 1% of which die and are replaced by cell division every day. In order to ensure cell survival and controlled growth of these new cells, the genetic information, stored in DNA molecules, must first be correctly copied and then accurately distributed during cell division. Moreover, to fully ascertain that the new cells will contain the same genetic information as the parental cells, any damage to the DNA, which is organised into several chromosomes, must be repaired.

Quite a bit is known about two of these complexes. One of them, cohesin, keeps the DNA copies together such that they do not separate too early; while the other, condensin, makes the chromosomes more compact, making the separation easier.

Packing ratio - the length of DNA divided by the length into which it is packaged

The shortest human chromosome contains 4.6 x 107 bp of DNA (about 10 times the genome size of E. coli). This is equivalent to 14,000 µm of extended DNA, or about 2 meters. In its most condensed state during mitosis, the chromosome is about 2 µm long. This gives a packing ratio of 7000 (14,000/2).

To achieve the overall packing ratio, DNA is not packaged directly into final structure of chromatin. Instead, it contains several hierarchies of organization.

The first level of packing is achieved by the winding of DNA around a protein core to produce a "bead-like" structure called a nucleosome. This gives a packing ratio of about 6. This structure is invariant in both the euchromatin and heterochromatin of all chromosomes.

The second level of packing is the coiling of beads in a helical structure called the 30 nm fiber that is found in both interphase chromatin and mitotic chromosomes. This structure increases the packing ratio to about 40.

The final packaging occurs when the fiber is organized in loops, scaffolds and domains that give a final packing ratio of about 1000 in interphase chromosomes and about 7,000 in mitotic chromosomes.

Thats a amazing change , from a ratio of 6, to 7.000 !!

To fit 2 meters of DNA into a tiny nucleus is a monumental engineering feat. DNA is highly compacted yet has to be instantly available to rapidly make proteins in neurons with a momentary change of thought. This regulation is different in each type of cell. . It has been known for some time that the shape of proteins determines their function and the folding is very complex involving four levels of folding .

Condensins: universal organizers of chromosomes with diverse functions

Condensins are multisubunit protein complexes that play a fundamental role in the structural and functional organization of chromosomes in the three domains of life. It is a molecular machine that helps to condense and package chromosomes for cell replication. It is a five subunit complex, and is “the key molecular machine of chromosome condensation.

Condensin produces “supercoils” of DNA, one of many steps in packing the delicate DNA strands into a hierarchy of coils that results in a densely-packed chromosome. “It is not entirely clear how the DNA is held in this supercoiled state,” , “but several studies suggest that the V-shaped arms of the condensin complex may loop and clamp the DNA in place.” This clamping is “rapid and reversible.” Scientists watching the process in both bacteria and humans are “showing that both vertebrate and bacterial condensins drive DNA compaction in an ATP-dependent fashion with a surprising level of co-operativity that was not fully appreciated.” The condensin molecules work as a team; if not enough condensin is around, nothing happens. condensin is just one of many enzymes involved in chromosome formation.

The chromosomal condensin complex is a major molecular effector of chromosome condensation and segregation in diverse organisms ranging from bacteria to humans. Condensin is a large, evolutionarily conserved, multisubunit protein assembly composed of dimers of the structural maintenance of chromosomes (SMC) family of ATPases, clasped into topologically closed rings by accessory subunits.

At the end of S phase, the immensely long DNA molecules of the sister chromatids are tangled in a mass of partially catenated DNA and proteins. Any attempt to pull the sisters apart in this state would undoubtedly lead to breaks in the chromosomes. To avoid this disaster, the cell devotes a great deal of energy in early mitosis to gradually reorganizing the sister chromatids into relatively short, distinct structures that can be pulled apart more easily in anaphase. These chromosomal changes involve two processes: chromosome condensation, in which the chromatids are dramatically compacted; and sister-chromatid resolution, whereby the two sisters are resolved into distinct, separable units

How could these nano machines arise by natural means, in a gradual stepwise manner ? These molecular machines had to be in place when life began, since they are essential. Mutation and natural selection is not a conceivable mechanism at this stage. Unless someone can demonstrate a series of small steps to climb mount unprobable (as Richard Dawkins calls the challenge of evolving complex, information-rich, functional biological structures), this is wishful thinking. The mountain is not a series of small steps, but a cliff with slippery vertical walls. And why would a mindless molecule even want to go climb uphill against its natural inclinations? The discoveries in biochemistry are making evolution increasingly untenable. Here we see highly complex molecules, made up of building blocks (amino acids) arranged in precise sequences to build functioning machines. The complexity is mind-boggling, and it exists all the way down in the very simplest single-celled life forms, with no precursors. Without these machines, the cell could not divide. Proposing intelligent design is not a argument of ignorance. We know that intelligent minds are capable of projecting complex machines where ideas of problem solutions are required. Intelligent minds are able to store large quantities of information into small spaces, computer chips are a good example. As conclusion, Intelligent design constitutes the best, most causally adequate, explanation for the existence of these highly complex, essential nano machines in the cell.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t2086-ch...esign#3646

After reading this thread my preliminary assessment is that you are not doing very well.

For example, I have noticed that you have received a new ass 14 times, contradicted yourself 11 times, seemed dazed and confused throughout the thread, and have not once successfully defended any of your points.

In the interest of preserving your mental health, may I suggest an about-face and head down to your local watering hole and become so inebriated as to completely forget that this conversation ever happened?

Have yourself a great day!

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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20-07-2015, 10:11 PM (This post was last modified: 20-07-2015 10:45 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
Decided to delete the video when I found a more a propos one, one that directly addresses the Creationist (Dr. Jason Lyle) who came up with the argument he was pretending was his own.





"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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21-07-2015, 04:21 AM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(20-07-2015 10:11 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Decided to delete the video when I found a more a propos one, one that directly addresses the Creationist (Dr. Jason Lyle) who came up with the argument he was pretending was his own.





At 0:42 Lisle says "...DNA is one of the most marvelous evidences..."

Jesus H. Christ, if you are going to debate learn to speak English. "Evidences" is an illiterate term used only by Christian apologists.

Fuckin' morons.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-07-2015, 05:28 AM (This post was last modified: 21-07-2015 05:31 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(20-07-2015 10:11 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Decided to delete the video when I found a more a propos one, one that directly addresses the Creationist (Dr. Jason Lyle) who came up with the argument he was pretending was his own.





This makes me think of how theists have changed their evidences for their gods over time. The gods used to cause thunder, lightning and rain until we learned about the weather. It was inconceivable how these powerful forces of nature couldn't be the result of powerful gods in the heavens.

Now the gods push around DNA molecules. It's inconceivable how these wondrous molecules could self-organize naturally without the gods pushing them together under their design.

I see no difference in their pronunciations, they just move to different mysteries as the old mysteries are no longer believed to be mysteries anymore.
Unfortunately we are at the point it takes a bit of scientific understanding to understand these natural processes and appeals to our scientific ignorance can be enough to fool a lot of people.
Why go through the trouble understanding these chemical reactions and how replication takes place naturally? Just assert that the gods push molecules together, not chemical reactions. This is a way for a creationist to hide behind the veil of ignorance and profit from the others that choose stay behind the veil with them.

All hail the god of the gaps! The molecule pusher that operates in the microscopic realm, forever unseen!

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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21-07-2015, 05:48 AM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
(20-07-2015 06:41 AM)Godexists Wrote:  [Image: meme_g11.png]

nobody addressed my concrete examples of IC. Waiting...LOL.....

Yes Rolleyes

The fool asserts they need to be without offering proof that this is the only solution.

There: happy?


(20-07-2015 05:49 PM)Godexists Wrote:  [Image: meme_g14.jpg]

Using God of the Gaps arguments are a comfortable way to avoid looking for what might actually be in the gaps of our knowledge.

Assertions are easy. Try something non-presuppositional if you want to be taken seriously around here.
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21-07-2015, 06:37 AM
RE: Chromosome condensation, amazing evidence of design
Godexists: "...blah, blah, blah, chlorophyll, ... blah, blah, blah, Intelligent Design!"

Meanwhile, in Gen. 6:6, "The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled." Twice in the same chapter, YHWH regrets that he made man.

YHWH so dumb he disses Christians with Yo' God jokes.

Doc
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