Churches, money, and jesus questions
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19-08-2012, 08:40 AM (This post was last modified: 19-08-2012 09:34 AM by elemts.)
Churches, money, and jesus questions
OK, I made the mistake (so to speak) of listening to different religious programs on the radio today instead of just getting out of bed to shut off the alarm....

And I was a tad bit curious.

1) One said something like (paraphrased as it was a 5 minute or so speech) "are you good? I see a lot of you that I thought were good decent people, then in time they stopped going to church and that makes god angry because god can't stand people like that"--followed by "pass around the collection plates". Do churches not hide they just want people for their money? I swore the bible (i.e. jesus) said to pray in private, hidden, where no one could see you--nothing about going to church to pray in collective groups as being "god's way"

2) Short thing, a reading from the bible (not sure where, it's in John somewhere they said): God created jesus and jesus's flesh is the bread from heaven. Paraphrased, but said right before communion I believe. If god created jesus, wouldn't that mean that some believe that god created himself? I like Dr. Who and time paradoxes as much as the next person, but that seems wrong in a number of ways.

3) We need to get a education group together to bring school kids closer to god. [I'm not sure if they mean in their church as an afterschool thing, or try to influence the schools, but I'm thinking an afterschool thing as another church started one to "reeducate the children and give bibles so they can find the real answers"--they said it was so people could give children bibles so they could look up answers on their own...]

4) A woman preacher, woman announcer (something), another woman announcer (something), a woman organist...... do they ever teach from the parts of the bible that people quote (the theists normally) as women should be quite and let the man tell them about god?

And.... saved them for last because it was kind of funny
5) God is all powerful! He can do anything and knows what's in your heart. He makes you good (this was tied into the 5 minute speech I paraphrased above). But god can't look at sin! (the preacher said this, and quoted the bible that said this with no clarifications). He has to look away and turn from sinners...... if we're all sinners, and god can't look at sinners, and god basically shuns sinners... wouldn't that mean god can't look at his own creation...

6) God hates deception.


Do theists even remember what the minister says one week to another, or even read their holy book? I know why the #5 was done--he was guilt-tripping them into bringing more people into the church they haven't seen in a while and give him money. It just makes me laugh (in a bad way) that at least some theists will cherry-pick their own bible to get people to do what they want.....

It's like the old wives tales taught in a psych course I had "birds of a feather flock together" (many agree!) "opposites attract" (many agree!)---wait, aren't they opposite?!? Yes, yes they are! It's because you pick what saying backs what you want, makes you feel good, applies to the situation, or whatever.

Edit:
Oh and another neat gem just heard:
There are people out there who just found out they are dying from cancer, children in the hospital not going to make it and the parents and people aren't grateful! But god says they should be! God never gives people more than they can handle! I am picturing darkmatter2525 videos right now about that comment!

Another Edit from the next preacher they had on the radio Big Grin
-- Women cannot be preachers, if they are, they are lying deceivers that are against god
-- homosexuality is clearly mentioned in Matthew when Jesus is asked about divorce
-- god never changes, all of the old testament applies (says the preacher wearing non-mixed clothing...and one who said he loves red lobster and the local BBQ restaurant? interesting Big Grin )
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19-08-2012, 10:31 AM
RE: Churches, money, and jesus questions
There are ways to rationalize these thoughts, but point #4 really sticks out to me. While it's not necessarily true that a woman can't speak up in church (although you're right, the bible says that they should speak through their husbands -- I guess the exception would be unmarried women), the book of 1 Timothy in the New Testament specifically says that women can't be pastors. Of course there are attempts to rationalize this, too (anything can be rationalized if you're willing to set up double-standards or forgo logic/truth), but it's pretty clear what the bible has to say on this subject.

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19-08-2012, 10:48 AM
RE: Churches, money, and jesus questions
Hey, Elemts.

The first problem with your post is your repeated use of THEY. There are 38 000 some odd denominations of Christianity. There is no THEY. You interchange THEY with THEISTS. Both are far too general to yield anything of value. If you're out to slag Theists, then it's fine. But if you want actual answers to your questions, then you have to be more specific.

1 - The idea that churches just want people for their money is silly. I know a lot of ministers and so many of them work tirelessly, for very little money, to help people. Now this is not to say that they're all anointed saints who can do no wrong. But it is to say that the idea that all churches want people for is their money is not really supportable. That being said, there for sure are churches that do. I look at a lot of the mega-churches in the States and it really does smack of fast food big business church. I know a lot of Christians who really object to it and find the very idea offensive. That being said, I'm sure that some of the pastors and organisations in these mega-churches are benevolent as well. So it's complicated. At the heart of it all, churches and their associated denominations are large hierarchical organisations. All hierarchical organisations require resources to function; they all require inputs. So for sure the money they pull in at the collection plate means a lot to them and they couldn't function without it. But that doesn't mean that all they want people for is their money. That implies a one-way relationship, when, in many cases, it's a bilateral relationship.

2 - I have no idea. If there are those that think that way it's gotta be pretty easy to track down no?

3 - There's no real question for me to answer.

4 - I'm sure there are some denominations that preach the notion of women as secondary. But there are many that have women ministers and who are very egalitarian. Again, the only time the argument "the Bible says X therefore they should..." has any weight is when the denomination considers themselves Biblical literalists. For those denominations who do not see the Bible as literal or even as the word of God, then their doctrine can contain pretty much anything. Some people call that cherry picking, but that implies design. Religious doctrine isn't designed, it evolves. Advantageous traits are selected for and persist. Just a couple of days ago, the United Church of Canada, at a national conference, elected an openly gay man, in a homosexual marriage, as their new moderator. That couldn't happen in a number of Christian denominations but it makes perfect sense for the UCC.

5 - I think you have an odd interpretation of an odd theology. Can't really penetrate it much deeper than that except to say that salvation, redemption, forgiveness and grace appear in many Christian theologies. They might speak to what you're getting at.

6 - Nothing to add.

Quote:Do theists even remember what the minister says one week to another, or even read their holy book?

That question cannot be answered.

Quote:-- Women cannot be preachers, if they are, they are lying deceivers that are against god
-- homosexuality is clearly mentioned in Matthew when Jesus is asked about divorce
-- god never changes, all of the old testament applies (says the preacher wearing non-mixed clothing...and one who said he loves red lobster and the local BBQ restaurant? interesting Big Grin )

---Denomination specific. I know many women preachers.
---Biblical scholar I am not.
---Denomination specific.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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19-08-2012, 11:07 AM
RE: Churches, money, and jesus questions
(19-08-2012 10:48 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Elemts.

The first problem with your post is your repeated use of THEY. There are 38 000 some odd denominations of Christianity. There is no THEY. You interchange THEY with THEISTS. Both are far too general to yield anything of value. If you're out to slag Theists, then it's fine. But if you want actual answers to your questions, then you have to be more specific.

1 - The idea that churches just want people for their money is silly. I know a lot of ministers and so many of them work tirelessly, for very little money, to help people. Now this is not to say that they're all anointed saints who can do no wrong. But it is to say that the idea that all churches want people for is their money is not really supportable. That being said, there for sure are churches that do. I look at a lot of the mega-churches in the States and it really does smack of fast food big business church. I know a lot of Christians who really object to it and find the very idea offensive. That being said, I'm sure that some of the pastors and organisations in these mega-churches are benevolent as well. So it's complicated. At the heart of it all, churches and their associated denominations are large hierarchical organisations. All hierarchical organisations require resources to function; they all require inputs. So for sure the money they pull in at the collection plate means a lot to them and they couldn't function without it. But that doesn't mean that all they want people for is their money. That implies a one-way relationship, when, in many cases, it's a bilateral relationship.

2 - I have no idea. If there are those that think that way it's gotta be pretty easy to track down no?

3 - There's no real question for me to answer.

4 - I'm sure there are some denominations that preach the notion of women as secondary. But there are many that have women ministers and who are very egalitarian. Again, the only time the argument "the Bible says X therefore they should..." has any weight is when the denomination considers themselves Biblical literalists. For those denominations who do not see the Bible as literal or even as the word of God, then their doctrine can contain pretty much anything. Some people call that cherry picking, but that implies design. Religious doctrine isn't designed, it evolves. Advantageous traits are selected for and persist. Just a couple of days ago, the United Church of Canada, at a national conference, elected an openly gay man, in a homosexual marriage, as their new moderator. That couldn't happen in a number of Christian denominations but it makes perfect sense for the UCC.

5 - I think you have an odd interpretation of an odd theology. Can't really penetrate it much deeper than that except to say that salvation, redemption, forgiveness and grace appear in many Christian theologies. They might speak to what you're getting at.

6 - Nothing to add.

Quote:Do theists even remember what the minister says one week to another, or even read their holy book?

That question cannot be answered.

Quote:-- Women cannot be preachers, if they are, they are lying deceivers that are against god
-- homosexuality is clearly mentioned in Matthew when Jesus is asked about divorce
-- god never changes, all of the old testament applies (says the preacher wearing non-mixed clothing...and one who said he loves red lobster and the local BBQ restaurant? interesting Big Grin )

---Denomination specific. I know many women preachers.
---Biblical scholar I am not.
---Denomination specific.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt


The "they" I would use was meant to the specific people I was hearing/their church (I literally was writing it while listening for many things)--there were three to four church programs going on one after another that I caught----it wasn't a "they=theists" but a "they=the members of the specific church or more accurately the minister(s) of that specific church and probably some/many of the members". Each had different beliefs, such as the woman-based leadership church finished up, then the "women can't be ministers" church sermon by the next church (which said god had the same opinion of women ministers as homosexuals--according to the minister), then "god loves everyone" preached by the next one with a woman and man tag-team sermon. The #1 I posted came from the church saying that attendance was down, those not showing up were "bad" and were all-but no longer christian, and his people needed the people to get them back--and please pass around the collection plates now--if he wasn't saying "I need more money" he did some really bad timing.
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19-08-2012, 11:55 AM
RE: Churches, money, and jesus questions
Quote:-- homosexuality is clearly mentioned in Matthew when Jesus is asked about divorce

Wait... what?

No he doesn't.

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19-08-2012, 12:01 PM
RE: Churches, money, and jesus questions
(19-08-2012 11:55 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
Quote:-- homosexuality is clearly mentioned in Matthew when Jesus is asked about divorce

Wait... what?

No he doesn't.

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19-08-2012, 12:08 PM
RE: Churches, money, and jesus questions
(19-08-2012 11:55 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
Quote:-- homosexuality is clearly mentioned in Matthew when Jesus is asked about divorce

Wait... what?

No he doesn't.

I actually looked it up when he said it. Here's the quote, with context (well, the entire part according to the online bible I just selected:
Quote:<< Matthew 19 >>
New International Version 1984

Divorce

1When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’a 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’b? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

7“Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

10The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriagec because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

The part I bolded the minister said was proof jesus condemned homosexuality because he said a "man and woman". I read the rest and thought, "talk about cherry picking...."
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19-08-2012, 12:15 PM
RE: Churches, money, and jesus questions
(19-08-2012 12:08 PM)elemts Wrote:  
(19-08-2012 11:55 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Wait... what?

No he doesn't.

I actually looked it up when he said it. Here's the quote, with context (well, the entire part according to the online bible I just selected:
Quote:<< Matthew 19 >>
New International Version 1984

Divorce

1When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

4“Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’a 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’b? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

7“Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

10The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

11Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriagec because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

The part I bolded the minister said was proof jesus condemned homosexuality because he said a "man and woman". I read the rest and thought, "talk about cherry picking...."

Yeah.. that's bad cherry picking.

Jesus was quoting the OT.
Jesus was referencing what one should do in a M/F marriage.
They didn't have gay marriage back then.
They were talking about marriage - commonly understood as male and female.

This is ridiculously out of context.

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19-08-2012, 04:30 PM
RE: Churches, money, and jesus questions
(19-08-2012 08:40 AM)elemts Wrote:  3) We need to get a education group together to bring school kids closer to god. [I'm not sure if they mean in their church as an afterschool thing, or try to influence the schools, but I'm thinking an afterschool thing as another church started one to "reeducate the children and give bibles so they can find the real answers"--they said it was so people could give children bibles so they could look up answers on their own...]

Basicly they want children to be scared from hell since they can read so they are more attached to religion later in their lifes. Nothing like a childhood fear on your subconscious to make people stay in church.

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19-08-2012, 04:56 PM
RE: Churches, money, and jesus questions
(19-08-2012 12:15 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Yeah.. that's bad cherry picking.

Jesus was quoting the OT.
Jesus was referencing what one should do in a M/F marriage.
They didn't have gay marriage back then. Laughat
They were talking about marriage - commonly understood as male and female.

This is ridiculously out of context.

Well... that's also a bit of a misnomer.
Discussing marriage in the context of a sexual relationship, then there were most certainly homosexual relationships. They were in fact, accepted and encouraged in many circumstances.

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