Circular reasoning.
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27-04-2015, 06:52 PM
Circular reasoning.
OK, I got a weird one.

What do I say to this idiot?

I told him that circular reasoning falsifies everything attached to it.

He responds with. How can you trust your senses in which I replied with they are all we have. Which is true, going too far into it and I could find myself arguing a solipsist which as you all know is something I hate.

Then he responds with this fucked up logic.

So you use your memory, your senses, and your memory to justify your memory, senses, and reasoning?

You're engaging in circular reasoning, viciously circular reasoning at that.

I won't use the bible as God's revelation to man to prove the bible if you stop using your memory, your senses, and your reasoning to justify them. Deal?



wtf do I say to this retard?


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27-04-2015, 06:54 PM
RE: Circular reasoning.
(27-04-2015 06:52 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  OK, I got a weird one.

What do I say to this idiot?

I told him that circular reasoning falsifies everything attached to it.

He responds with. How can you trust your senses in which I replied with they are all we have. Which is true, going too far into it and I could find myself arguing a solipsist which as you all know is something I hate.

Then he responds with this fucked up logic.

So you use your memory, your senses, and your memory to justify your memory, senses, and reasoning?

You're engaging in circular reasoning, viciously circular reasoning at that.

I won't use the bible as God's revelation to man to prove the bible if you stop using your memory, your senses, and your reasoning to justify them. Deal?

wtf do I say to this retard?

Nope. We confirm the observations of our senses with the external facts and the agreement of others' observations.

Science works, bitches.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-04-2015, 07:00 PM
RE: Circular reasoning.
You have to start with basic axioms in any system. Accepting that there is an actual reality and that our senses are generally reliable in responding to that reality seem to me like good starting points. If our senses are not reliable then there is no point discussing anything since there is no way to know anything.

That doesn't mean that our senses are perfect; we know they aren't. What we can do is test them repeatedly and compare our own results against the results of others. That process lets us determine what is most likely true. It is the repeatability that is key to trusting your memory, senses, and reasoning.

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27-04-2015, 07:09 PM
RE: Circular reasoning.
Shared experience I.E. Senses, reasoning, & memory with other beings also factors in. How do you quantify they aren't your solipsistic creations? You might not be able to but you're relying on various connections to make a conclusion. It's going to be absurd no matter what your answer is.

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27-04-2015, 07:24 PM
RE: Circular reasoning.
(27-04-2015 07:22 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Oh wait there is a giraffe involved?

That changes everything.

You might want to get someone to move that to the right thread. Consider

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27-04-2015, 07:25 PM
RE: Circular reasoning.
(27-04-2015 07:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-04-2015 07:22 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Oh wait there is a giraffe involved?

That changes everything.

You might want to get someone to move that to the right thread. Consider

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27-04-2015, 07:59 PM
RE: Circular reasoning.
(27-04-2015 06:52 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  I won't use the bible as God's revelation to man to prove the bible if you stop using your memory, your senses, and your reasoning to justify them. Deal?

wtf do I say to this retard?

If he actually believes that what he just said was legitimate criticism, then there's an easy answer: "Only if you do too."

The truth is, within the framework of what he's saying, he's engaged in exactly the same circularity, only I doubt he has an answer that solves the problem of hard solipsism for his side that wouldn't also solve it for yours, and also literally be something you're already doing. Chas has it right, we can confirm our observations via mutual agreement, objective measures like machines and so on, and also we fully recognize that our senses can be fooled or wrong; it's basically the only way we can make initial determinations of mental illness, for example. If your theist goes there, then he's essentially said nothing at all with his initial point and you can ask him to retract it before you continue.

More likely, he'll do the one thing that christians can that atheists cannot, and appeal to the bible; he can rely on his senses because they are god given and therefore accurate, or something like that. But since he's already acknowledged that the bible is god's revelation to man, he's stuck, because how does he absorb that revelation? By reading or hearing the bible... using his senses... uh oh. He's right back at circularity, only he's added an extra step. Doesn't help him.

In the end, you'll be left arguing with a person insisting upon solipsism for you but not for him with no good reason to, upon which time you can safely call the argument off, or you'll be able to move on to more productive pastures.
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27-04-2015, 08:04 PM
RE: Circular reasoning.
(27-04-2015 06:52 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  "You're engaging in circular reasoning, viciously circular reasoning at that. "

[...]

wtf do I say to this retard?

"If our senses are inaccurate, why are we both engaged in this conversation?

We are sharing this reality. If your senses or my senses were wrong, why aren't you talking about mountaintops while I'm talking about Caesarian sections?"

The interaction of willful agents demonstrates that reality is objective. Comparing your sensory inputs against those of another person is all the evidence you need to dismiss his bullshit.
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28-04-2015, 05:26 AM
RE: Circular reasoning.
Then again - a 2x4 applied to the side of the head might knock him outta the reasoning loop.....

And even if it doesn't - think how good it'll make YOU feel...


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28-04-2015, 08:18 AM
RE: Circular reasoning.
(27-04-2015 06:52 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  OK, I got a weird one.

What do I say to this idiot?

I told him that circular reasoning falsifies everything attached to it.

He responds with. How can you trust your senses in which I replied with they are all we have. Which is true, going too far into it and I could find myself arguing a solipsist which as you all know is something I hate.

Then he responds with this fucked up logic.

So you use your memory, your senses, and your memory to justify your memory, senses, and reasoning?

You're engaging in circular reasoning, viciously circular reasoning at that.

I won't use the bible as God's revelation to man to prove the bible if you stop using your memory, your senses, and your reasoning to justify them. Deal?



wtf do I say to this retard?

This person is an idiot.

First, the validity of the senses is axiomatic and any attack on the senses is self refuting since it necessarily relies on the senses being valid.

Second, circularity is something that applies to a deductive argument, not to an inductive one.

Third, if a person is aware of the things around him then his senses are doing their job perfectly. No one departs from reality on the perceptual level.

Lastly, the senses are self validating in a non circular manner. We can validate our sense of sight with our sense of touch for instance, so no circularity.

Another one that I get all the time is "you're using your reason to validate your reason. That's circular." No it isn't. I don't use my reason to validate my reason, I use reality to validate my reasoning. That's not circular. And, again, any attack on reason is self refuting since using an argument to invalidate reason is self contradictory.

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