Circular reasoning.
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30-04-2015, 10:22 AM
RE: Circular reasoning.
I would counter simply with each of the senses plus memory serve as independent data points to verify or contradict what one or some are doing.

I may hear and see a lion in front of me but my sense of smell, memory and touch tell me it is just a TV screen thus I can conclude that I am not about to be eaten by a lion. (Thankfully I've left my sense of taste out of this scenario).

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored- Aldous Huxley
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30-04-2015, 10:52 AM
RE: Circular reasoning.
(27-04-2015 06:54 PM)Chas Wrote:  Nope. We confirm the observations of our senses with the external facts and the agreement of others' observations.

Science works, bitches.

Or in other words we confirm the observation of our senses with our senses? The "facts used to establish the truth or falsehood of any statement are understood to be relative to the perspective of those proving or falsifying the proposition".
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30-04-2015, 11:08 AM
RE: Circular reasoning.
(30-04-2015 10:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-04-2015 06:54 PM)Chas Wrote:  Nope. We confirm the observations of our senses with the external facts and the agreement of others' observations.

Science works, bitches.

Or in other words we confirm the observation of our senses with our senses? The "facts used to establish the truth or falsehood of any statement are understood to be relative to the perspective of those proving or falsifying the proposition".

We confirm it by its regularity and predictability confirmed by others.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-04-2015, 11:11 AM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2015 11:14 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Circular reasoning.
(30-04-2015 11:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  We confirm it by its regularity and predictability confirmed by others.

Yet, there are others who reach entirely different conclusions, which they confirm with their others.

You believe your mind, and the minds of those you confirm with, are free of certain inhibitions, and biases, able to navigate and decipher what is true, and believe that those who don't draw the same conclusions, are not free from these inhibitions as your mind is.
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30-04-2015, 11:16 AM
RE: Circular reasoning.
(30-04-2015 11:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(30-04-2015 11:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  We confirm it by its regularity and predictability confirmed by others.

Yet, there are others who reach entirely different conclusions, which they confirm with their others.

You believe your mind, and the minds of those you confirm with, are free of certain inhibitions, and biases, able to navigate and decipher what is true, and believe that those who don't draw the same conclusions, are not free from these inhibitions as your mind is.

It's not about drawing conclusions, it's about the regularity of observation of the physical universe.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-04-2015, 11:28 AM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2015 11:34 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Circular reasoning.
(30-04-2015 11:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  It's not about drawing conclusions, it's about the regularity of observation of the physical universe.

No, it's all about drawing conclusions, interpretations, because everything is filtered and being recognized, and drawn in our own minds. And if one's own mind is not particularly reliable, prone to biases, and deceptions why should you trust your observation mean what they do?

Delusional people don't particularly recognize they're delusional. Just like people don't particularly recognize their own biases. If one's a distorted thinker, he doesn't particularly recognize that he is distorted. How do you know you're a not a distorted thinker, that leads you to draw all sorts of false conclusions as a result? How do you know your mind is pure, and free from these ailments, that supposedly plague those who disagree with you?
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30-04-2015, 11:37 AM
RE: Circular reasoning.
(30-04-2015 11:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(30-04-2015 11:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  It's not about drawing conclusions, it's about the regularity of observation of the physical universe.

No, it's all about drawing conclusions, interpretations, because everything is filtered and being recognized, and drawn in our own minds. And if one's own mind is not particularly reliable, prone to biases, and deceptions why should you trust your observation mean what they do?

Delusional people don't particularly recognize they're delusional. Just like people don't particularly recognize their own biases. If one's a distorted thinker, he doesn't particularly recognize that he is distorted. How do you know you're a not a distorted thinker, that leads you to draw all sorts of false conclusions as a result? How do you know your mind is pure, and free from these ailments, that supposedly plague those who disagree with you?

It's not about thinking, it's about observing.

What I stated was:
"Nope. We confirm the observations of our senses with the external facts and the agreement of others' observations.

Science works, bitches."

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-04-2015, 12:27 PM
RE: Circular reasoning.
(30-04-2015 11:37 AM)Chas Wrote:  It's not about thinking, it's about observing.

So I can observe without thinking?
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30-04-2015, 02:08 PM
RE: Circular reasoning.
(30-04-2015 12:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(30-04-2015 11:37 AM)Chas Wrote:  It's not about thinking, it's about observing.

So I can observe without thinking?

How much time have you spent grasping Eastern thought? Of course, though for some reason it seems not as clear to many Westerners....

And it's why you seek as many others as possible with other views to decipher what may be more of a correct description of some observations. You need it to avoid your falling into believing delusions, but there are also mass delusions so you need to keep expanding it.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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30-04-2015, 03:38 PM
RE: Circular reasoning.
(30-04-2015 12:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(30-04-2015 11:37 AM)Chas Wrote:  It's not about thinking, it's about observing.

So I can observe without thinking?

Yes and no, but that has nothing to do with my point. It is about the agreement of observations, facts not thoughts.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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