Civil disturbance
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
17-10-2016, 04:28 PM
RE: Civil disturbance
(17-10-2016 03:24 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(17-10-2016 06:51 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  So if Trump runs as an independent all its gonna do is remove those idiot republican voters from voting republican to voting Trump. And democrats are gonna win again.

Yeah, I figured the bit about the Republican factions splitting the vote. Just one or two wee problems.

So now America finally gets away from the two party system. You have:

Democrats
Republicans
Idiots

The Idiots are the alt right Trump supporters shorn of any restraint or decency imposed upon them by the Republicans and infuriated at both sides for their 2016 loss. They are off their leash, running wild and frothing at the mouth. They can't muster the support to win but could make certain that everybody else loses.

The next problem is that the system isn't built for anything but a two party system. It isn't simply first-past-the-poll, you have to get 50% + 1 of the electoral college votes to win. If the Idiots drain support from the Republicans and Hillary is facing an unpopular re-election bid (would this surprise anybody?) then all three parties could fall short of the famed 270 electoral college vote mark. Now the 12th Ammendment kicks in and produces the ultimate nightmare: Clinton, Bush and Trump get sent before the incoming House of Representatives and each state gets one vote. God alone knows what the House will look like after an election like that but you can't see the Idiots letting it go quietly.

It would never be 3 parties, because if there was an ultra right party, an ultra left one would emerge (maybe Sanders) and so forth. These would then all make deals with each other. That's what seems to happen in multi party environments.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-10-2016, 04:30 PM
RE: Civil disturbance
(17-10-2016 06:51 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(16-10-2016 09:41 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  What are the odds for Trump running as an independant in 2020?

Because it wasn't already GoodevilChaseBanana_zorro enough.

Honestly, I really hope he does.

Ben Stein was dead on when he said that there are two types of republican voters. There's the crazy red neck racist white guys and then there's the rich wealthy whatever. [...]

Donald has done what he has because of the idiot republican, much to the disdain of the rich republican. So next election the rich republican is gonna wanna put forward a decent more..typical.. republican candidate. [...]

There's a third variety, the deeply religious variety. Not necessarily redneck or racist, working- to middle-class, and not really interested in policy unless it addresses their religious views.

These tri-partite chasms have been forming in this party for a long time ... this election cycle is simply those chasms being brought out into the open.

Good news is that it looks like the religious faction stands to lose the most, selling their "principles" to support Trump anyway even as he stomps all over them. The Republicans will probably shed their fealty to the religious right in America, because it's too difficult to appeal to all three factions at once, and the religious right are not only the smallest, they have no alternative (the other two factions can defect to Libertarians, therefore the RNC must actually court them).
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-10-2016, 04:53 PM
RE: Civil disturbance
If Trump loses and the results of the election can even remotely be construed as close, I can see him making all sorts of ridiculous demands for recounts.

Of course he'll still have his "rigged election" theory to fall back on.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-10-2016, 04:56 PM
RE: Civil disturbance
(17-10-2016 04:53 PM)pablo Wrote:  If Trump loses and the results of the election can even remotely be construed as close, I can see him making all sorts of ridiculous demands for recounts.

Of course he'll still have his "rigged election" theory to fall back on.

He knows he is losing, hence the rigged election. It also helps in case he wins, because he will have won despite a rigged election, he will be the best winner, he will be the greatest winner, and he will win again.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Dom's post
17-10-2016, 05:16 PM
RE: Civil disturbance
(17-10-2016 04:30 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(17-10-2016 06:51 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Honestly, I really hope he does.

Ben Stein was dead on when he said that there are two types of republican voters. There's the crazy red neck racist white guys and then there's the rich wealthy whatever. [...]

Donald has done what he has because of the idiot republican, much to the disdain of the rich republican. So next election the rich republican is gonna wanna put forward a decent more..typical.. republican candidate. [...]

There's a third variety, the deeply religious variety. Not necessarily redneck or racist, working- to middle-class, and not really interested in policy unless it addresses their religious views.

These tri-partite chasms have been forming in this party for a long time ... this election cycle is simply those chasms being brought out into the open.

Good news is that it looks like the religious faction stands to lose the most, selling their "principles" to support Trump anyway even as he stomps all over them. The Republicans will probably shed their fealty to the religious right in America, because it's too difficult to appeal to all three factions at once, and the religious right are not only the smallest, they have no alternative (the other two factions can defect to Libertarians, therefore the RNC must actually court them).

The religious right losing their foothold with a political party would be so sweet an occurrence I'd gag from a saccharine overload. I doubt they are down for the count, though; they have a lot of money.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-10-2016, 05:22 PM
RE: Civil disturbance
(17-10-2016 04:53 PM)pablo Wrote:  If Trump loses and the results of the election can even remotely be construed as close, I can see him making all sorts of ridiculous demands for recounts.

Of course he'll still have his "rigged election" theory to fall back on.

There was a wonderful article in today's New York Times about Al Gore's honorable and gracious concession speech in 2000 when he lost to George Bush. Honorable and gracious are not words that would ever describe Donald Trump. I distinctly remember admiring Al Gore for his unifying speech.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/17/opinio...eft-region

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-10-2016, 05:28 PM
RE: Civil disturbance
(17-10-2016 05:16 PM)Fireball Wrote:  
(17-10-2016 04:30 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  There's a third variety, the deeply religious variety. Not necessarily redneck or racist, working- to middle-class, and not really interested in policy unless it addresses their religious views.

These tri-partite chasms have been forming in this party for a long time ... this election cycle is simply those chasms being brought out into the open.

Good news is that it looks like the religious faction stands to lose the most, selling their "principles" to support Trump anyway even as he stomps all over them. The Republicans will probably shed their fealty to the religious right in America, because it's too difficult to appeal to all three factions at once, and the religious right are not only the smallest, they have no alternative (the other two factions can defect to Libertarians, therefore the RNC must actually court them).

The religious right losing their foothold with a political party would be so sweet an occurrence I'd gag from a saccharine overload. I doubt they are down for the count, though; they have a lot of money.

They don't have near as much money as the business wing of that party -- and the Republicans can capture some evangelical votes by maintaining appeal to Tea Partiers, because there is some overlap.

Finances and demographics both bode ill for the evangelical wing, I think.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Thumpalumpacus's post
17-10-2016, 05:40 PM
RE: Civil disturbance
(17-10-2016 04:28 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(17-10-2016 03:24 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Yeah, I figured the bit about the Republican factions splitting the vote. Just one or two wee problems.

So now America finally gets away from the two party system. You have:

Democrats
Republicans
Idiots

The Idiots are the alt right Trump supporters shorn of any restraint or decency imposed upon them by the Republicans and infuriated at both sides for their 2016 loss. They are off their leash, running wild and frothing at the mouth. They can't muster the support to win but could make certain that everybody else loses.

The next problem is that the system isn't built for anything but a two party system. It isn't simply first-past-the-poll, you have to get 50% + 1 of the electoral college votes to win. If the Idiots drain support from the Republicans and Hillary is facing an unpopular re-election bid (would this surprise anybody?) then all three parties could fall short of the famed 270 electoral college vote mark. Now the 12th Ammendment kicks in and produces the ultimate nightmare: Clinton, Bush and Trump get sent before the incoming House of Representatives and each state gets one vote. God alone knows what the House will look like after an election like that but you can't see the Idiots letting it go quietly.

It would never be 3 parties, because if there was an ultra right party, an ultra left one would emerge (maybe Sanders) and so forth. These would then all make deals with each other. That's what seems to happen in multi party environments.

Exactly.

Multi-party systems of course have their faults. But first past the post's faults FAR FAR outweigh the faults of multi-party systems faults.

Quote:The next problem is that the system isn't built for anything but a two party system.

So change it. Do away with the college system, it's stupid anyway.
And I disagree anyway. You could have MMP with your electoral college.
Take your 100 senator seats, divide them among the States, maybe Hawaii gets 1 Texas gets 3, something like that. When you have elections for the senate just keep that FPP OR do it preferential voting. ie: You have a list of candidates and put a number next to them most to least favourite.

ie: Say you live in Texas and there's 3 seats.
You go to the voting booth and on the paper is say 7 candidates. You see their name and their party affiliation. You write 1 next to your top candidate, 2 next to your 2nd, 3 next to your third. Votes are counted and the top 3 get a seat each.

Then for the house of representatives you just go off percentage of votes.
If 50% of people vote for Democrats the Democrats get 50% of the House of representative seats.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes earmuffs's post
17-10-2016, 06:35 PM
RE: Civil disturbance
(17-10-2016 05:40 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  ie: Say you live in Texas and there's 3 seats.
You go to the voting booth and on the paper is say 7 candidates. You see their name and their party affiliation. You write 1 next to your top candidate, 2 next to your 2nd, 3 next to your third. Votes are counted and the top 3 get a seat each.

You are giving the American electorate as a whole way too much credit if you think we couldn’t fuck this up. Big Grin

[Image: CaryBallot.jpg]

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Full Circle's post
17-10-2016, 10:24 PM
RE: Civil disturbance
(17-10-2016 06:35 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(17-10-2016 05:40 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  ie: Say you live in Texas and there's 3 seats.
You go to the voting booth and on the paper is say 7 candidates. You see their name and their party affiliation. You write 1 next to your top candidate, 2 next to your 2nd, 3 next to your third. Votes are counted and the top 3 get a seat each.

You are giving the American electorate as a whole way too much credit if you think we couldn’t fuck this up. Big Grin

[Image: CaryBallot.jpg]

The bonus to this voting slip is that idiots votes don't count because if they fuck it up it's simply marked as non-vote.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes earmuffs's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: