Claims of Divine Healing
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15-09-2016, 04:42 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
(15-09-2016 03:54 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  Today I talked to man I know who is a Christian. He's not a pastor, but he is a teacher. Anyways he's knows how I used to be a youth preacher and lead messages in FCA(Fellowship of Christian Athletes). So when I told him I doubt the faith and can't really believe the things in the bible he(of course) never gave a good answer. Circular reasoning was used basically because no matter how good of a point I made he would always use a bible passage to defend himself. He said it's good that I have questions and he's never seen anyone ask questions like me especially at my age(18). He thinks I just need to not doubt God and keep pressing. So of course this was almost pointless because he didn't understand that I don't believe and would rather not have anything to do with FCA.

However, he said one thing that really stumped me. Only because I like to think he is a pretty honest guy and wouldn't lie to me. He told me a story about him going to a hospital to pray for a woman who had one side of her face numb from cerebral palsy I think. Anyways, he prayed for her for about 20 minutes and he said that his arm felt warm and she was healed. She could feel her face now. I asked if she was still healed and he said 2-3 years after that he hadn't talked to her since. And after that 2-3 years one day he said that she was on his mind one day because "God put her on his mind" and a a few days after she was the one who called him. They began talking and he said that she needed to tell her church what the Lord had done for her.

How do you all feel about this? I don't want to just debunk it but there's no evidence. For this person to lie to me would be shocking. Maybe there's an explanation? Or he is remembering things incorrectly? What do you all think?

Please no rude comments towards the individual who is my friend. Thanks:).

I read Amazing Randy's book The faith Healers he actually posted a reward for anyone that could do that. No one collected it.

He had a couple of conditions for faith-based healing claims:

Does the claimant have a signed doctors statement establishing the exact diagnosis of this person before the alleged faith healing attempt?

Is this person undergoing any medical treatment for this alleged condition?

Does the person have a signed doctor's statement after this faith healing attempt that establishes this condition has been cured by this and not the treatment they were getting?

Are all of the people in this event available for interviews in person in case there are further questions?

You see, it's not enough to make a claim, people lie or misinterpret things all of the time, you have to create a solid evidentiary trail to establish the truth of a claim.

Basically they can STFU unless they can meet all of these requirements.

Money talks, bullshit walks. That's why Randi never payed out his reward despite thousands that made these claims to get his reward.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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15-09-2016, 04:53 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
Ever notice there are still hospitals? Ever notice not one "miracle" healing involves a limb growing back?

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15-09-2016, 04:57 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
It's funny how god has never healed an amputee, but routinely heals those with conditions known to naturally go into remission or were self-diagnosed.

As theInquisition said, there's a reason no one has collected the Randi prize.

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15-09-2016, 05:08 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
(15-09-2016 04:57 PM)Loom Wrote:  It's funny how god has never healed an amputee, but routinely heals those with conditions known to naturally go into remission or were self-diagnosed.

As theInquisition said, there's a reason no one has collected the Randi prize.

God grants healing to all who have conditions that can heal. You don't even have to be a believer.

Why is that?
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15-09-2016, 05:08 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
(15-09-2016 04:35 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  It's called Bell's Palsy and it heals all by itself ALL the time, and the transformation is almost instanteous. No miracle needed. Tell him to grow up and do some research.
That seems like a reasonable guess.

Amazing, isn't it, that with a little bit of knowledge, as well as throwing in many assumptions and especially coupled with the complex environment of human health, that some people are so ready to be totally convinced of a "Miracle".

Of course, what we know is that "special and remarkable" claims require quite a lot of investigation, quite a lot of knowledge, before we can come to some kind of conclusion. We are right to be sceptical, even if an honest person was a first hand witness and they are testament to their complete belief in having witnessed a "miracle". It doesn't mean that they are lying. It does however mean that they had a desire to be witness to a miracle, lack of sufficient scepticism and are ill equipped with regards to performing a sufficient investigation and assessment of the situation that they witnessed.
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15-09-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
(15-09-2016 05:08 PM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  
(15-09-2016 04:57 PM)Loom Wrote:  It's funny how god has never healed an amputee, but routinely heals those with conditions known to naturally go into remission or were self-diagnosed.

As theInquisition said, there's a reason no one has collected the Randi prize.

God grants healing to all who have conditions that can heal. You don't even have to be a believer.

Why is that?
There is no statistical advantage with regards to Christians recovering from illness compared to other religious groups or atheists.

If there is a god, it isn't responding to prayer in any tangible and measurable way. Which means that, even if there is a god, your prayers are really just a one way talk. You can thank god, you can tell god how wonder you think the god is, you can tell god all about your day, your hopes and wishes. There is probably not a lot of difference in praying to a god or in writing in a diary as if your diary is a "person" that is listening to you.
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15-09-2016, 05:28 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
I love the chapter on the (in)effectiveness of prayer in the God Delusion.

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15-09-2016, 05:41 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
I also think these miracle claims have to be assessed in terms of their context in the real world.

Why didn't god answer any prayers of almost 6 million holocaust victims?

Why would god answer YOUR prayer when he ignored the pleadings of millions trying to keep from dying a horrific death?

A person making these claims needs to seriously answer this question. None of this bullshit apologism will work, this god has entire genocides in recent history to answer for. Drinking Beverage

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15-09-2016, 06:10 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
Awhile ago some fundie tried pulling the old "but this or that study proves prayer works" of course when you look into these studies there either creamed data poorly done or have no objective means of rating success

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15-09-2016, 06:20 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
(15-09-2016 03:54 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  Today I talked to man I know who is a Christian. He's not a pastor, but he is a teacher. Anyways he's knows how I used to be a youth preacher and lead messages in FCA(Fellowship of Christian Athletes). So when I told him I doubt the faith and can't really believe the things in the bible he(of course) never gave a good answer. Circular reasoning was used basically because no matter how good of a point I made he would always use a bible passage to defend himself. He said it's good that I have questions and he's never seen anyone ask questions like me especially at my age(18). He thinks I just need to not doubt God and keep pressing. So of course this was almost pointless because he didn't understand that I don't believe and would rather not have anything to do with FCA.

However, he said one thing that really stumped me. Only because I like to think he is a pretty honest guy and wouldn't lie to me. He told me a story about him going to a hospital to pray for a woman who had one side of her face numb from cerebral palsy I think. Anyways, he prayed for her for about 20 minutes and he said that his arm felt warm and she was healed. She could feel her face now. I asked if she was still healed and he said 2-3 years after that he hadn't talked to her since. And after that 2-3 years one day he said that she was on his mind one day because "God put her on his mind" and a a few days after she was the one who called him. They began talking and he said that she needed to tell her church what the Lord had done for her.

How do you all feel about this? I don't want to just debunk it but there's no evidence. For this person to lie to me would be shocking. Maybe there's an explanation? Or he is remembering things incorrectly? What do you all think?

Please no rude comments towards the individual who is my friend. ThanksSmile.

I'd be wondering why god gave her the disease in the first place.

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