Claims of Divine Healing
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15-09-2016, 06:32 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
(15-09-2016 06:20 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(15-09-2016 03:54 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  Today I talked to man I know who is a Christian. He's not a pastor, but he is a teacher. Anyways he's knows how I used to be a youth preacher and lead messages in FCA(Fellowship of Christian Athletes). So when I told him I doubt the faith and can't really believe the things in the bible he(of course) never gave a good answer. Circular reasoning was used basically because no matter how good of a point I made he would always use a bible passage to defend himself. He said it's good that I have questions and he's never seen anyone ask questions like me especially at my age(18). He thinks I just need to not doubt God and keep pressing. So of course this was almost pointless because he didn't understand that I don't believe and would rather not have anything to do with FCA.

However, he said one thing that really stumped me. Only because I like to think he is a pretty honest guy and wouldn't lie to me. He told me a story about him going to a hospital to pray for a woman who had one side of her face numb from cerebral palsy I think. Anyways, he prayed for her for about 20 minutes and he said that his arm felt warm and she was healed. She could feel her face now. I asked if she was still healed and he said 2-3 years after that he hadn't talked to her since. And after that 2-3 years one day he said that she was on his mind one day because "God put her on his mind" and a a few days after she was the one who called him. They began talking and he said that she needed to tell her church what the Lord had done for her.

How do you all feel about this? I don't want to just debunk it but there's no evidence. For this person to lie to me would be shocking. Maybe there's an explanation? Or he is remembering things incorrectly? What do you all think?

Please no rude comments towards the individual who is my friend. ThanksSmile.

I'd be wondering why god gave her the disease in the first place.

Yeah a couple days after my cancer diagnosis some JWs showed up and said I should pray for healing. I asked why in the fuck I would ask for help from the same entity that made me sick (as per their beliefs). First time I have ever been rude when the Bible thumpers have appeared at the door.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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15-09-2016, 06:44 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
(15-09-2016 04:35 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  It's called Bell's Palsy and it heals all by itself ALL the time, and the transformation is almost instanteous. No miracle needed. Tell him to grow up and do some research.

Thanks I I've never heard of it!
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15-09-2016, 06:48 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
(15-09-2016 03:54 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  Today I talked to man I know who is a Christian. He's not a pastor, but he is a teacher. Anyways he's knows how I used to be a youth preacher and lead messages in FCA(Fellowship of Christian Athletes). So when I told him I doubt the faith and can't really believe the things in the bible he(of course) never gave a good answer. Circular reasoning was used basically because no matter how good of a point I made he would always use a bible passage to defend himself. He said it's good that I have questions and he's never seen anyone ask questions like me especially at my age(18). He thinks I just need to not doubt God and keep pressing. So of course this was almost pointless because he didn't understand that I don't believe and would rather not have anything to do with FCA.

However, he said one thing that really stumped me. Only because I like to think he is a pretty honest guy and wouldn't lie to me. He told me a story about him going to a hospital to pray for a woman who had one side of her face numb from cerebral palsy I think. Anyways, he prayed for her for about 20 minutes and he said that his arm felt warm and she was healed. She could feel her face now. I asked if she was still healed and he said 2-3 years after that he hadn't talked to her since. And after that 2-3 years one day he said that she was on his mind one day because "God put her on his mind" and a a few days after she was the one who called him. They began talking and he said that she needed to tell her church what the Lord had done for her.

How do you all feel about this? I don't want to just debunk it but there's no evidence. For this person to lie to me would be shocking. Maybe there's an explanation? Or he is remembering things incorrectly? What do you all think?

Please no rude comments towards the individual who is my friend. ThanksSmile.

As others have probably noted, cerebral palsy is a lifelong condition. Bell's palsy is a temporary condition that tends to resolve. Therefore, your friend is either misrepresenting, misunderstanding, or misremembering the circumstance of the "healing." You don't, I bet, attribute the resolution of a cold to being touched or prayed over by your friend.

Your statement that your friend is sincere in his belief and is trustworthy is no help to the argument of whether this cure is god-aided. Confirmation bias combined with pattern seeking leads to many similar situations, where causation is claimed but not warranted. When I kissed my son's boo-boos, he said they felt better. I don't doubt his account, but that was not because I had magical healing powers. Instead, it was a combination of the placebo effect and the fact that cuts hurt less as they heal.
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15-09-2016, 06:50 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
(15-09-2016 04:42 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(15-09-2016 03:54 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  Today I talked to man I know who is a Christian. He's not a pastor, but he is a teacher. Anyways he's knows how I used to be a youth preacher and lead messages in FCA(Fellowship of Christian Athletes). So when I told him I doubt the faith and can't really believe the things in the bible he(of course) never gave a good answer. Circular reasoning was used basically because no matter how good of a point I made he would always use a bible passage to defend himself. He said it's good that I have questions and he's never seen anyone ask questions like me especially at my age(18). He thinks I just need to not doubt God and keep pressing. So of course this was almost pointless because he didn't understand that I don't believe and would rather not have anything to do with FCA.

However, he said one thing that really stumped me. Only because I like to think he is a pretty honest guy and wouldn't lie to me. He told me a story about him going to a hospital to pray for a woman who had one side of her face numb from cerebral palsy I think. Anyways, he prayed for her for about 20 minutes and he said that his arm felt warm and she was healed. She could feel her face now. I asked if she was still healed and he said 2-3 years after that he hadn't talked to her since. And after that 2-3 years one day he said that she was on his mind one day because "God put her on his mind" and a a few days after she was the one who called him. They began talking and he said that she needed to tell her church what the Lord had done for her.

How do you all feel about this? I don't want to just debunk it but there's no evidence. For this person to lie to me would be shocking. Maybe there's an explanation? Or he is remembering things incorrectly? What do you all think?

Please no rude comments towards the individual who is my friend. ThanksSmile.

I read Amazing Randy's book The faith Healers he actually posted a reward for anyone that could do that. No one collected it.

He had a couple of conditions for faith-based healing claims:

Does the claimant have a signed doctors statement establishing the exact diagnosis of this person before the alleged faith healing attempt?

Is this person undergoing any medical treatment for this alleged condition?

Does the person have a signed doctor's statement after this faith healing attempt that establishes this condition has been cured by this and not the treatment they were getting?

Are all of the people in this event available for interviews in person in case there are further questions?

You see, it's not enough to make a claim, people lie or misinterpret things all of the time, you have to create a solid evidentiary trail to establish the truth of a claim.

Basically they can STFU unless they can meet all of these requirements.

Money talks, bullshit walks. That's why Randi never payed out his reward despite thousands that made these claims to get his reward.

Thank you so much! Great answer! I've heard of the Amazing Randi and I wouldn't care to check the book out.
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15-09-2016, 06:53 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
(15-09-2016 04:57 PM)Loom Wrote:  It's funny how god has never healed an amputee, but routinely heals those with conditions known to naturally go into remission or were self-diagnosed.

As theInquisition said, there's a reason no one has collected the Randi prize.

Yea that's sort of what I tried to tell him. It's so true.
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15-09-2016, 06:55 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
(15-09-2016 05:08 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(15-09-2016 04:35 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  It's called Bell's Palsy and it heals all by itself ALL the time, and the transformation is almost instanteous. No miracle needed. Tell him to grow up and do some research.
That seems like a reasonable guess.

Amazing, isn't it, that with a little bit of knowledge, as well as throwing in many assumptions and especially coupled with the complex environment of human health, that some people are so ready to be totally convinced of a "Miracle".

Of course, what we know is that "special and remarkable" claims require quite a lot of investigation, quite a lot of knowledge, before we can come to some kind of conclusion. We are right to be sceptical, even if an honest person was a first hand witness and they are testament to their complete belief in having witnessed a "miracle". It doesn't mean that they are lying. It does however mean that they had a desire to be witness to a miracle, lack of sufficient scepticism and are ill equipped with regards to performing a sufficient investigation and assessment of the situation that they witnessed.

I agree 100%
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15-09-2016, 07:01 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
(15-09-2016 06:32 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(15-09-2016 06:20 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I'd be wondering why god gave her the disease in the first place.

Yeah a couple days after my cancer diagnosis some JWs showed up and said I should pray for healing. I asked why in the fuck I would ask for help from the same entity that made me sick (as per their beliefs). First time I have ever been rude when the Bible thumpers have appeared at the door.

Yea it's so pointless I mean that God has the power to fix everything but apparently picks and chooses who to heal.
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15-09-2016, 07:13 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
The standard counter to why god gave it to her is ethier

1. He didn't at one time bacteria and viruses were harmless then sin magically made these organism have massively complex tools perfectly good at killing us (note these are the same people who insist the bacterial flagellum is proof of intelligent design) so god is blameless and were evil etc


2. The second is to say that the sickness is a lesson or some shit god made you sick killed your child in order to improve your life somehow assholes like Matthew slick use this one especially when describing the death of his son because according to him it fixed his marriage and his sons in heaven so it's a win win frankly i lack the words to describe such a vile cynical narcissistic view of human suffering

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15-09-2016, 08:44 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
(15-09-2016 07:13 PM)OrdoSkeptica Wrote:  The standard counter to why god gave it to her is ethier

1. He didn't at one time bacteria and viruses were harmless then sin magically made these organism have massively complex tools perfectly good at killing us (note these are the same people who insist the bacterial flagellum is proof of intelligent design) so god is blameless and were evil etc


2. The second is to say that the sickness is a lesson or some shit god made you sick killed your child in order to improve your life somehow assholes like Matthew slick use this one especially when describing the death of his son because according to him it fixed his marriage and his sons in heaven so it's a win win frankly i lack the words to describe such a vile cynical narcissistic view of human suffering

Wow that's deep man. Hard to believe what religion does.
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15-09-2016, 09:57 PM
RE: Claims of Divine Healing
(15-09-2016 08:44 PM)goldenarm Wrote:  
(15-09-2016 07:13 PM)OrdoSkeptica Wrote:  The standard counter to why god gave it to her is ethier

1. He didn't at one time bacteria and viruses were harmless then sin magically made these organism have massively complex tools perfectly good at killing us (note these are the same people who insist the bacterial flagellum is proof of intelligent design) so god is blameless and were evil etc


2. The second is to say that the sickness is a lesson or some shit god made you sick killed your child in order to improve your life somehow assholes like Matthew slick use this one especially when describing the death of his son because according to him it fixed his marriage and his sons in heaven so it's a win win frankly i lack the words to describe such a vile cynical narcissistic view of human suffering

Wow that's deep man. Hard to believe what religion does.

Indeed fundamentalism is one hell of a trip

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